Re: Kāmañcettha pahānavinayena vinayo na sambhavati

Dear Petra,

Thank you for your second reply. I see now that you are right in the
main part of your interpretation, which is supported by the paragraphs
that follow (unless you are using the Sinhala script SHB edition, which
doesn’t break this passage into paragraphs!). Yes, I now understand the
sense to be that even though there are cases where removal by the five
methods of pahānavinaya does not occur, one removing [a defilement] by
any means can be said to remove it by pahānavinaya.

The point where I think my interpretation was right is in the meaning of
pariyāyato. I did a search just now through CST 4.0, for pariyāyato …
vuccati, pariyāyato … veditabbo, and pariyāyato … veditabbaṃ. All the
occurrences that turn up support the understanding of pariyāyato as
“figuratively,” or “in a manner of speaking,” rather than “according to
a method” of practice. I have pasted them in below (I don’t have the PTS
editions of the commentaries so I also refer to the VRI version). In
English we don’t have a term that exactly corresponds to pariyāyato as
the Pāli commentators use it, so we have to be satisfied with some
makeshift expression like “figuratively,” or “in a manner of speaking,”
used of course pariyāyato.

Thank you again for your help with this.

Blessings,

Bhikkhu Bodhi

*Ps I 127 (VRI 1.135 **§54):* **

Evaṃ sarūpato saccāni dassetvā idāni kilesavasena pariyāyato dassento
*ime āsavā*tiādimāha.

(Also at Mp II 263, Sp I 168, etc.)

*Dhs-a 422 (VRI 437 **§1434)*

Cetopariyañāṇassa ca sattadivasabbhantarātītaṃ cittameva ārammaṇaṃ.
Tañhi aññaṃ khandhaṃ vā khandhapaṭibaddhaṃ vā na jānāti,
*maggasampayuttacittārammaṇattā pana pariyāyato maggārammaṇanti vuttaṃ*.
Yathākammupagañāṇassa ca atītacetanāmattamevārammaṇanti.

*Ps-pṭ (VRI 1.148 **§22)*
Na hi dharamānaṃyeva ‘‘santa’’nti vuccati, tasmā sati dvārabhavaṅgādike
pacchā uppajjamānaṃ javanaṃ bāhiraṃ viya katvā nagaradvārasamānaṃ
vuttaṃ. Itarañca antonagaragharādisamānaṃ. Javanassa hi paramatthato
asatipi bāhirabhāve itarassa ca abbhantarabhāve ‘‘pabhassaramidaṃ,
bhikkhave, cittaṃ, tañca kho āgantukehi upakkilesehi upakkiliṭṭha’’nti
(a. ni. 1.49) ādivacanato āgantukabhūtassa kadāci kadāci uppajjamānassa
javanassa bāhirabhāvo, *tabbidhurasabhāvassa itarassa abbhantarabhāvo ca
pariyāyato veditabbo*.

*Vism (VRI 2.101 **§496)*
Hīnapaṇītabhedo duvidho pariyāyato nippariyāyato ca. Tattha akaniṭṭhānaṃ
rūpato sudassīnaṃ rūpaṃ hīnaṃ. Tadeva sudassānaṃ rūpato paṇītaṃ. Evaṃ
yāva narakasattānaṃ rūpaṃ, *tāva pariyāyato hīnapaṇītatā veditabbā.*
Nippariyāyato pana yattha akusalavipākaṃ uppajjati, taṃ hīnaṃ. Yattha
kusalavipākaṃ, taṃ paṇītaṃ.

*Vism-mṭ (VRI 2.458 **§813)*

*Gotrabhuanantara*nti ettha gotrabhu viya gotrabhu.
Paṭhamamaggapurecārikañāṇañhi puthujjanagottābhibhavanato,
ariyagottabhavanato ca nippariyāyato gotrabhūti vuccati, *idaṃ pana
taṃsadisatāya pariyāyato gotrabhu*. Ekaccasaṃkilesavisuddhiyā, pana
accantavisuddhiyā ārammaṇakaraṇato ca vodānanti vuccati.

*Sp-ṭ (VRI 1.12)*

Evañca katvā ariyamaggo tassa tadatthasiddhihetutāya nibbānañcāti
ubhayameva nippariyāyato dhāreti, ariyaphalaṃ pana
taṃsamucchinnakilesapaṭippassambhanena tadanuguṇatāya, *pariyattidhammo
tadadhigamahetutāyāti ubhayaṃ pariyāyato dhāretīti veditabbaṃ*.

*Sīlakkhandhavagga-Abhinavaṭīkā (VRI 1.276 **§7)
*Tiṇṇaṃmārānanti kilesābhisaṅkhāradevaputtamārānaṃ, idañca nippariyāyato
vuttaṃ, pariyāyato pana heṭṭhā vuttanayena pañcannampi mārānaṃ maddanaṃ
veditabbaṃ.

*Vibh-a 331 (VRI 314 **§511)
*Ettha ca saṃvarasīlaṃ avītikkamasīlanti idameva nippariyāyato sīlaṃ;
cetanā sīlaṃ cetasikaṃ sīlanti pariyāyato sīlanti veditabbaṃ.**



On 7/25/2013 11:01 AM, petra kieffer-pülz wrote:
>
> Dear Bhikkhu Bodhi,
>
> I am not certain whether your interpretation is
> what the commentator wants to state.
>
> The paragraph from tesu paṭippassaddhivinayaṃ up
> to na tehi kiñci vinetī ti vuccati gives examples for the
> ten types of vinaya, From the five saṃvaravinayas 1 is
> mentioned as sīlasaṃvarena, 2 to 3 three are mentioned
> together as satipaññā-, then follow 4 and 5 (khanti- and viriya).
> >From among the five pahānavinayas only the first three are
> explained, since in 4 and 5 (paṭipassaddhi. and nissaraṇa-)
> nothing is to be removed. Thus the statement from 10,8 (yehi
> dhammehi tadaṅga-vikhambhana-samuccheda-pahānāni) up
> to 10,14 (vuccati) belongs to the the pahānavinayas 1-3. In the
> first sentence it is explained that one removes anger by giving
> up those dhammas which are connected with 1. tadaṅgappahānaṃ,
> 2. vikkhambhana-, 3 samuccheda-. Thus this sentence grasps the
> dhammas belonging to the first three pahānavinayas. The kāmañ
> c' ettha sentence then discusses the case that there is no removal
> according to the pahānavinayas (i.e. those three just mentioned
> in the preceding sentence). In that case all dhammas constituting
> pahāna (not only those belonging to pahānavinaya 1-3) are taken
> into account. "And if one removes (anger) according to/through
> those dhammas which constitute pahāna, he is called one who
> removes according to/through pahānavinaya on account of the
> method (?pariyāyato) (he applies)".
>
> Let me add two points. Are you sure that pariyāyato mean "figuratively"
> here? As we know pariyāya has many meanings. In your translation of
> the AN you translated it as "in a provisional way". The reason, why I
> ask is that pariyāya appears three times in the relevant paragraph,
> twice as an instrumental, and once as an ablative. In the tena tena
> pariyāyena vineti passages, which open and end the paragraph, it
> means "way, method". II think that in pariyāyato it has the same
> meaning "on account of the method (which he applies) he is called
> one who removes according to/through pahānavinaya?"
>
> Another thing is that vineti has the object in the accusative. In the
> kāmañ
> sentence there is no accusative, but only an instrumental which as in
> the preceding
> sentences gives the means by which one removes something. Cf. the
> passage, a little further down where we have the combination instr. +
> vineti
> (tesu yena kenaci āghātapaṭivinayena vinentopesa vinetī ti pavuccati.
> "Even if one removes (whatever) through one or other āghātapaṭivinaya
> among the (five types of āghātapaṭivinaya), he is called one who
> removes).
> In the kāmañ sentence you translate tehi vinentopi as "he is
> training in those factors", but that probably should be "even if he is
> removing
> (anger) according/through this factors".
>
> With kind regards,
> Petra
>
> Am 25.07.2013 um 13:44 schrieb Bhikkhu Bodhi:
>
> > Dear Petra,
> >
> > Thank you for replying to my inquiry. I didn’t see the distinction that
> > you make between a narrower and broader sense of pahāna. I puzzled over
> > the passage last night, still without success, but when I looked at it
> > again this morning the meaning suddenly became clear to me.
> >
> > I think the key to understanding the passage is recognition that
> this is
> > an explanation of the opening line in the Uraga Sutta, yo uppatitaṃ
> > vineti kodhaṃ. As I now interpret the comment, the point is that one
> who
> > is *presently in the process of removing anger* (vinentopi) cannot be
> > said to have actually accomplished the removal by abandoning
> > (pahānavinayena vinayo na sambhavati). That he is still in the process
> > of removing anger is indicated by the present tense verb of the verse
> > (vineti) and the present participle of the commentary (vinentopi).
> > However, though he has not yet really accomplished the removal by
> > abandoning, because he is training in those factors by which abandoning
> > occurs (yehi pana dhammehi pahānaṃ hoti, tehi vinentopi), figuratively
> > it can be said that he is removing it through “removal by abandoning.”
> >
> > Does this seem cogent?
> >
> > With metta,
> >
> > Bhikkhu Bodhi
> >
> > On 7/24/2013 12:33 PM, petra kieffer-pülz wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear Bhikkhu Bodhi,
> > >
> > > I think pahāna is used in a wider and a narrower sense here. The
> > > narrower sense of pahāna is given in the sabbampi cetaṃ sentence (the
> > > five types of pahāna).
> > > In the second explanation (taṃtaṃ°) pahāna has a wider range,
> > > everything can be abandoned, everything can be trained or removed
> > > (vinaya).
> > > The kāmañ c' ettha sentence to my understanding refers to the case
> > > that pahāna in the narrower sense is not given. Then one who removes
> > > or trains in any dhamma for which there exists giving up, even if it
> > > does not fit the definitions of the five types of pahānavinaya, is
> > > figuratively called one who trains acording to pahānavinaya.
> > >
> > > (Granted that the removal/training (vinayo) according to 'the
> > > removal/training consisting in giving up' (pahānavinaya) does not
> > > exist, of which dhammas there exists a giving up, even one who trains
> > > in/removes them is figuratively called one that trains according to
> > > pahānavinaya.)
> > >
> > > Thus the kāmañ c' ettha sentence takes up the second definition
> > > (taṃtaṃ°), and allows the designation pahānavinaya for one who gives
> > > up whatever.
> > >
> > > Kind regards,
> > > Petra Kieffer-Pülz
> > >
> > > Am 24.07.2013 um 16:59 schrieb Bhikkhu Bodhi:
> > >
> > > > Dear Friends,
> > > >
> > > > The passage below is from the Suttanipāta-aṭṭhakathā, VRI ed. I
> 9, Ee I
> > > > 10. I quote the full passage for context, but I am puzzled by the
> > > > sentences: Kāmañcettha pahānavinayena vinayo na sambhavati. Yehi
> pana
> > > > dhammehi pahānaṃ hoti, tehi vinentopi pariyāyato ‘‘pahānavinayena
> > > > vinetī’’ti vuccati.
> > > >
> > > > This seems to contradict what was said just above, that vinaya
> occurs
> > > > for one who has pahāna. If so, why is it said that pahānavinayena
> > > vineti
> > > > is used only figuratively (pariyāyato)? I looked up pahānavinayo and
> > > > pahānavinayoti in CST Search to see if another Aṭṭhakathā or Tīkā
> > > offers
> > > > an explanation, but it seems none do. Am I missing something
> that could
> > > > clarify the purport here?
> > > >
> > > > Sincerely,
> > > > Bhikkhu Bodhi
> > > >
> > > > From Suttanipāta-aṭṭhakathā, VRI ed. I 9, Ee I 10:
> > > > Sabbampi cetaṃ pahānaṃ yasmā cāgaṭṭhena pahānaṃ, vinayanaṭṭhena
> vinayo,
> > > > tasmā ‘‘pahānavinayo’’ti vuccati, taṃtaṃpahānavato vā tassa tassa
> > > > vinayassa sambhavatopetaṃ ‘‘pahānavinayo’’ti vuccati. Evaṃ
> > > > pahānavinayopi pañcadhā bhijjatīti veditabbo. Evamekekassa pañcadhā
> > > > bhinnattā dasete vinayā honti.
> > > >
> > > > Tesu paṭippassaddhivinayaṃ nissaraṇavinayañca ṭhapetvā avasesena
> > > > aṭṭhavidhena vinayenesa tena tena pariyāyena vinetīti pavuccati.
> > > Kathaṃ?
> > > > Sīlasaṃvarena kāyavacīduccaritāni vinentopi hi taṃsampayuttaṃ kodhaṃ
> > > > vineti, satipaññāsaṃvarehi abhijjhādomanassādīni vinentopi
> > > > domanassasampayuttaṃ kodhaṃ vineti, khantisaṃvarena sītādīni
> khamantopi
> > > > taṃtaṃāghātavatthusambhavaṃ kodhaṃ vineti, vīriyasaṃvarena
> > > > byāpādavitakkaṃ vinentopi taṃsampayuttaṃ kodhaṃ vineti. Yehi
> dhammehi
> > > > tadaṅgavikkhambhanasamucchedappahānāni honti, tesaṃ dhammānaṃ attani
> > > > nibbattanena te te dhamme pajahantopi tadaṅgappahātabbaṃ
> > > > vikkhambhetabbaṃ samucchinditabbañca kodhaṃ vineti. Kāmañcettha
> > > > pahānavinayena vinayo na sambhavati. Yehi pana dhammehi pahānaṃ
> hoti,
> > > > tehi vinentopi pariyāyato ‘‘pahānavinayena vinetī’’ti vuccati.
> > > > Paṭippassaddhippahānakāle pana vinetabbābhāvato
> nissaraṇappahānassa ca
> > > > anuppādetabbato na tehi kiñci vinetīti vuccati. Evaṃ tesu
> > > > paṭippassaddhivinayaṃ nissaraṇavinayañca ṭhapetvā avasesena
> > > aṭṭhavidhena
> > > > vinayenesa tena tena pariyāyena vinetīti pavuccatīti.
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi
> > > > Chuang Yen Monastery
> > > > 2020 Route 301
> > > > Carmel NY 10512
> > > > U.S.A.
> > > >
> > > > To help feed the hungry and educate disadvantaged children around
> > > the world,
> > > > please check:
> > > > Our website: http://www.buddhistglobalrelief.org/
> > > > Our blog: http://buddhistglobalrelief.wordpress.com/
> > > >
> > > > For my Dhamma lectures and teachings:
> > > > http://www.baus.org/en/?cat=9 (includes schedule of classes)
> > > >
> http://bodhimonastery.org/a-systematic-study-of-the-majjhima-nikaya.html
> > > > http://www.noblepath.org/audio.html
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> > > >
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> > > >
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> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> > >
> >
> > --
> > Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi
> > Chuang Yen Monastery
> > 2020 Route 301
> > Carmel NY 10512
> > U.S.A.
> >
> > To help feed the hungry and educate disadvantaged children around
> the world,
> > please check:
> > Our website: http://www.buddhistglobalrelief.org/
> > Our blog: http://buddhistglobalrelief.wordpress.com/
> >
> > For my Dhamma lectures and teachings:
> > http://www.baus.org/en/?cat=9 (includes schedule of classes)
> > http://bodhimonastery.org/a-systematic-study-of-the-majjhima-nikaya.html
> > http://www.noblepath.org/audio.html
> > http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL23DE0292227250FA
> >
> > For my public photo albums:
> > http://picasaweb.google.com/venbodhi
> >
> > Sabbe satta avera hontu, abyapajja hontu, anigha hontu, sukhi hontu!
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>


--
Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi
Chuang Yen Monastery
2020 Route 301
Carmel NY 10512
U.S.A.

To help feed the hungry and educate disadvantaged children around the world,
please check:
Our website: http://www.buddhistglobalrelief.org/
Our blog: http://buddhistglobalrelief.wordpress.com/

For my Dhamma lectures and teachings:
http://www.baus.org/en/?cat=9 (includes schedule of classes)
http://bodhimonastery.org/a-systematic-study-of-the-majjhima-nikaya.html
http://www.noblepath.org/audio.html
http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL23DE0292227250FA

For my public photo albums:
http://picasaweb.google.com/venbodhi


Sabbe satta avera hontu, abyapajja hontu, anigha hontu, sukhi hontu!



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]