RE: gamanassādānaṃ d evaputtānaṃ

Dear Fellow Pali Groupers,



I thank those of you who replied to my inquiry. I see that there is no simple and unambiguous interpretation of this passage, though I found Ven. Pandita’s explanation to be cogent. I don’t see the problem that Ven. Yuttadhammo has in taking pāde to mean “on the feet.” I also think the idea that the meeting “conjoins” the head of one deity with the feet of the other would be expressed otherwise than by the use of the past participle baddha- (which seems to me better than the variant bandha-). The occurrence of a conjunction is already indicated (in my reading) by samāgama (or sannipāta in parallel passages). It occurred to me a short while ago that what is probably being related here is an ancient Indian explanation of meteorites, the phenomenon popularly known as “a shooting star.” On this hypothesis, it would be the momentary meeting of the two blades that gives off a shooting star.



What I was really interested in was the question whether there was any basis for Soma Thera’s insertion of “the sun” into the passage. As Ven. Yuttadhammo suggests, Soma may have had in mind the Dhanuggahasutta from the Opamma-samyutta. Perhaps in the original printed edition he included a note explaining his rendering (I have only the electronic version); if not, he should certainly have included such a note.



Again, with thanks,

Bhikkhu Bodhi



From: palistudy@yahoogroups.com [mailto:palistudy@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Yuttadhammo Bhikkhu
Sent: Wednesday, August 08, 2012 1:29 PM
To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [palistudy] gamanassādānaṃ devaputtānaṃ



  

Bhante,

Here are a few more versions, with even more variation to consider:

DN-t (Mahāvaggaṭīkā, 6. Mahāgovindasuttavaṇṇanā,
Chakhattiyāamantanāvaṇṇanā): yo vā so gamanassādānaṃ devaputtānaṃ
heṭṭhupariyena paṭimukhaṃ dhāvantānaṃ sirasi, pāde ca
baddhakhuradhārāsamāgamanatopi sīghataratāya atīttaro pavattikkhaṇo,
teneva vinassanasabhāvaṃ.

Dhs-t: gamanassādānaṃ devaputtānaṃ heṭṭhupariyāyena paṭimukhaṃ
dhāvantānaṃ sirasi pāde ca baddhakhuradhārāsannipātato ca parittataro kālo.

Vism-t: tatra hi gamanassādānaṃ devaputtānaṃ heṭṭhupariyena paṭimukhaṃ
dhāvantānaṃ sirasi, pāde ca baddhakhuradhārāsannipātatopi parittako
rūpajīvitindriyassa so khaṇo vutto, cittassa pana ativiya parittataro,
yassa upamāpi natthi.

Vism-t: tathā hi gamanassādānaṃ devaputtānaṃ heṭṭhupariyāyena paṭimukhaṃ
dhāvantānaṃ sirasi pāde ca bandhakhuradhārā sannipātatopi sīghataro
rūpadhammānaṃ nirodho vutto, pageva arūpadhammānaṃ.

> The meaning of this passage is far from transparent to me, but I will
> attempt a translation on the basis of passage 5, which seems to me to
> avoid the flaws in the others. I will show word for word how I am
> translating it:
>
> For extremely brief (ati-ittaro hi) is the occurrence-moment
> (pavattikkhaṇo) even of material phenomena (rūpadhammānampi); it is
> more fleeting (sīghataro) even than the meeting of the razor blades
> bound (baddhakhuradhārāsamāgamatopi) on the head and feet (sirasi pāde
> ca) of the young gods who enjoy travel (gamanassādānaṃ devaputtānaṃ),
> as they are running in opposite directions (paṭimukhaṃ dhāvantānaṃ),
> upward and downward (heṭṭhupariyāyena).
>
> This seems a reasonably accurate rendering of the Pāli, but I have no
> idea what the passage is actually referring to. Could it be some sort
> of astronomical phenomenon? Did Soma Thera have access to some legend
> in the Indian background that he used to interpret the passage in his
> rendering?
>

I have a hard time taking "pāde" as "on the feet"... The Kathaavatthu
tika has a phrase:

sirasi pādā pacchato cakkhūnīti evaṃ sabbaṃ sabbattha atthīti attho.

which I understand as: "'"the feet are at the head, the eyes are in
behind" - thus everything is everywhere' is the meaning."

I wonder if it would be better rendered as:

"It is more fleeting (sīghataro) even (api) than the razor-edge
(khuradhārā) meeting (samāgamato) which conjoins (baddha) the feet
(pāde) [of one] at the head (sirasi) [of the other] of [two]
devaputtas (devaputtānaṃ) who, sporting in going (gamanassādānaṃ),
are running (dhāvantānaṃ) towards each other (paṭimukhaṃ) from above
and below (heṭṭhupariyena)."

I am sceptical of the idea of bound razors! It seems to me more likely
to be a description of the meeting, and that baddha simply refers to the
conjunction. This translation of course doesn't account for the ca (two
in the case of the Dhs-t). The only way I can account for the two "ca"s
is by taking it as two separate examples, but I can't figure out what it
might mean then.

On a side note, the MN-t has what looks to be a typo
"baddhadhuradhārāsannipātatopi".

Bryan, I don't see why khuradhārā can't keep its long ā in a compound...
it is feminine after all. We find khuradhārātikhiṇesu and
khuradhārāsadisāni in the literature which seem obviously to refer to a
razor's blade.

Finally, here's a passage about running devas, which may be what Ven.
Soma was using as a source:

SN 2, 9. opammasaṃyuttaṃ, 6. dhanuggahasuttaṃ
yathā ca yā devatā candimasūriyānaṃ purato dhāvanti tāsaṃ devatānaṃ
javo, tato sīghataraṃ āyusaṅkhārā khiyanti.

SN-a
purato dhāvantīti aggato javanti. na panetā sabbakālaṃ puratova
honti, kadāci purato, kadāci pacchato honti. ākāsaṭṭhakavimānesu hi
uyyānānipi honti pokkharaṇiyopi, tā tattha nahāyanti, udakakīḷaṃ
kīḷamānā pacchatopi honti, vegena pana gantvā puna puratova dhāvanti.

Best wishes,

Yuttadhammo

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]