Re: Anomalies in the suttas?

Dear Bhante, Lennart, Jim, Bryan:

thank you, that's a good explanation of what (you'll note) I called a
"seeming 'anomaly'".

It was in fact the Cullavedalla Sutta that I had in mind, and I should have
taken the small trouble to double-check, when I was writing my message and
said that the kāyasaṅkhāra is first to cease: no, of course, it is
vacīsaṅkhāra, first, then kāyasaṅkhāra (paṭhamaṃ nirujjhati vacīsaṅkhāro,
tato kāyasaṅkhāro, tato cittasaṅkhāro ti).  Thanks also for the very nice
reminder about Ānanda's verse in Mahāparinibbāna Sutta, with reference to
the Buddha's passing away in the 4th jhāna.

So, as you say, it makes sense, of course, given that "vitakkavicārā
vacīsaṅkhāro", that vacīsaṅkhāra ceases with the transition to the 2nd jhāna
(I should have thought of that).  And obviously, it's easier to stop the
gross thinking process than it is to stop the breathing process.  This makes
quite sensible the possibility of the commentary's explanation that "tato
kāyasaṅkhāro ti tato paraṃ kāyasaṅkhāro catutthajjhāne nirujjhati".  I like
Lennart's idea: "just enter the fourth jhana esp. on anapanasati and see
what happens to your breath".  Sounds like an excellent project: nothing
like 'sandiṭṭhika' evidence!

Lennart's comments "in the fourth jhana breath appears to be stopped **to
you, the meditator**. It has become so refined, subtle and "unnoticable",
that it
appears as if it physically does not occur anymore" and "almost nobody I
know believes this to mean a physical cessation of your breath", like
Bryan's idea that "in the advanced stages of meditation and total
relaxation/peacefulness, breath  becomes so miniscule that one could say
(with some metaphoric licencse) that it ceases", are very pragmatic; yet, I
suppose there would be others who might want to take the meaning of
"assāsapassāsā niruddhā" much more 'literally', but then one could split
hairs about what 'literally' could mean, here.  In the end, I agree, it does
come down to practice, and finding out for oneself.

It might be interesting, but I believe ultimately beside the point, to do
the kinds of 'scientific experiments' that have been tried on advanced
meditators (attaching ECGs, EEGs, EMGs, sphygmomanometers, thermometers,
etc. to their bodies and monitoring what happens during meditation!!)
because there is a really fundamental incommensurablity between what others
can see and measure in the body (what convention calls the 'objective'), and
what the experiencer experiences 'mentally' (what convention calls the
'subjective').  (It is probably indifferent whether one prefers to suppose
that the breath 'seems' to cease 'physically' to the onlooker or
'sensationally' to the meditator.  I believe there is such a thing as
'subtle breath', in the transition between 'gross (physical) breath' and the
'movement' ('breathing') of consciousness, the cessation of which might be
taken to be the meaning of "cittasaṅkhāro nirujjhati".)

>I don't see an anomaly here.

Agreed.  I'm satisfied with this result.

I'll be more diligent in preparing the information about the second 'seeming
anomaly' concerning which I'd like to benefit from everyone's expertise.  A
little bit later, when I've dealt with other immediate matters.

Many thanks again, take care,
respectfully, with metta,
Khristos



On 19 July 2010 01:45, nyanatusita bhikkhu <nyanatusita@...> wrote:

>
>
> Dear Khristos,
>
> Here's an answer to your questions on the cessation of the breath in the
> fourth jhana.
>
>
> >
> > It's the last sentence in this quotation that I'm curious about:
> > "catutthaṃ jhānaṃ samāpannassa assāsapassāsā niruddhā honti." Am I to
> > understand, here, that in the fourth jhāna, inhalation and exhalation
> > cease??
> >
>
> Yes.
> This passage is also found elsewhere too in the Sutta Pitaka at D III 266
> and A IV 409.
> It is also stated in a discussion on this topic in the Milindapañha (p. 85:
> ‘‘*So hi nāma, mahārāja, saddo abhāvitakāyassa abhāvitasīlassa
> abhāvitacittassa abhāvitapaññassa kāye namite viramissati, kiṃ pana
> bhāvitakāyassa bhāvitasīlassa bhāvitacittassa bhāvitapaññassa
> catutthajjhānaṃ samāpannassa assāsapassāsā na nirujjhissantī’’t*i.)
> It is also found in the Pali commentaries: Nidd-a II 6: *Bhavesu hi
> kāmabhave assāsapassāsā pavattanti, rūpārūpabhavesu nappavattanti. Tasmā so
> **bhavacarimo**. Jhānesu purimajhānattayeva pavattanti, catutthe
> nappavattanti. Tasmā so **jhānacarimo. *
> Nidd-a I 176 *Kāyasaṅkhāranirodho**ti **assāsapassāsānaṃ**
> **nirodho**āvaraṇo, catutthajjhānasamāpattisamāpajjanaṃ.
>
> *
>
> > Even internally to the doctrine itself, let alone more mundane
> > practical reasons, this seems strange, because of the fact that it is
> > usually stated that breathing stops during saññāvedayitanirodha: i.e.,
> the
> > kāyasaṅkhārā are the first to cease upon entering saññāvedayitanirodha.
> >
>
> Where is this usually stated? I could not find any statement that the
> breath
> specifically first ceases in the attainment of cessation.
>
> In the Cullavedalla Sutta it is said that first the vacīsaṅkhāra ceases,
> and
> then the kāyasaṅkhāra and finally the cittasaṅkhāra: M I
> 301:*Saññāvedayitanirodhaṃ
> samāpajjantassa kho, āvuso visākha, bhikkhuno paṭhamaṃ
> **nirujjhati**vacīsaṅkhāro, tato
> **kāyasaṅkhāro**, tato cittasaṅkhāro ti.*
> This makes sense because the attainment of cessation is attained by way of
> attaining the jhanas first therefore the vacīsaṅkhāra, ceases first in the
> second jhana and the kāyasaṅkhāra first in the fourth, and the
> cittasaṅkhāra
> only in cessation.
> M-a II 365: *Paṭhamaṃ nirujjhati vacīsaṅkhāro**ti sesasaṅkhārehi paṭhamaṃ
> dutiyajjhāneyeva nirujjhati. **Tato kāyasaṅkhāro**ti tato paraṃ
> kāyasaṅkhāro
> catutthajjhāne nirujjhati. **Tato cittasaṅkhāro**ti tato paraṃ
> cittasaṅkhāro
> antonirodhe nirujjhati.*
>
> The Buddha attained parinibbaana while in the fourth jhana, D II 156:
> … *tatiyajjhānā
> vuṭṭhahitvā catutthaṃ jhānaṃ samāpajji, catutthajjhānā vuṭṭhahitvā
> samanantarā bhagavā parinibbāyi. *
> Anuruddha noticed that his breath had ceased there: Nā*hu assāsapassāso, **
> ṭhitacittassa** **tādino**; anejo santimārabbha, yaṃ kālamakarī muni. *
> The Theragatha commentary states that assāsapassāsā are the kāyasaṅkhārā
> and
> therefore were not present in the fourth jhana:
> Th-a III 70: *Tattha **nāhu assāsapassāsā, ṭhitacittassa tādino**ti
> anulomapaṭilomato
> anekākāravokārā sabbā samāpattiyo samāpajjitvā vuṭṭhāya sabbapacchā
> catutthajjhāne ṭhitacittassa tādino buddhassa bhagavato assāsapassāsā nāhu
> nāhesunti attho. Etena yasmā catutthajjhānaṃ samāpannassa kāyasaṅkhārā
> nirujjhanti. Kāyasaṅkhārāti ca assāsapassāsā vuccanti, tasmā
> catutthajjhānakkhaṇato paṭṭhāya assāsapassāsā nāhesunti dasseti.*
>
>
> I will look at the commentary, next, but I'm curious to know how the
> > more seasoned deal with such seeming 'anomalies'.
> >
>
> I don't see an anomaly here.
>
> Best wishes,
> Bhikkhu Nyanatusita
>
>
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>
> 
>


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