Re: Anomalies in the suttas?

Dear Bhante, Khristos,

I would have to look up quotes, but from what I remember most jhana
practicioners and teachers agree (for instance, Ajahn Brahm, Ayya Khema,
Leigh B.) that in the fourth jhana breath appears to be stopped to you, the
meditator. It has become so refined, subtle and "unnoticable", that it
appears as if it physically does not occur anymore (simply due to the total
relaxation and calmness of the body -> passambhayam kayasankharam :-))
However, and again this is from my memory, almost nobody I know believes
this to mean a physical cessation of your breath. It is actually quite easy
to find out: just enter the fourth jhana esp. on anapanasati and see what
happens to your breath.

my two cents,

Lennart


On Sun, Jul 18, 2010 at 12:15 PM, nyanatusita bhikkhu <nyanatusita@...
> wrote:

>
>
> Dear Khristos,
>
> Here's an answer to your questions on the cessation of the breath in the
> fourth jhana.
>
>
> >
> > It's the last sentence in this quotation that I'm curious about:
> > "catutthaṃ jhānaṃ samāpannassa assāsapassāsā niruddhā honti." Am I to
> > understand, here, that in the fourth jhāna, inhalation and exhalation
> > cease??
> >
>
> Yes.
> This passage is also found elsewhere too in the Sutta Pitaka at D III 266
> and A IV 409.
> It is also stated in a discussion on this topic in the Milindapañha (p. 85:
> ‘‘*So hi nāma, mahārāja, saddo abhāvitakāyassa abhāvitasīlassa
> abhāvitacittassa abhāvitapaññassa kāye namite viramissati, kiṃ pana
> bhāvitakāyassa bhāvitasīlassa bhāvitacittassa bhāvitapaññassa
> catutthajjhānaṃ samāpannassa assāsapassāsā na nirujjhissantī’’t*i.)
> It is also found in the Pali commentaries: Nidd-a II 6: *Bhavesu hi
> kāmabhave assāsapassāsā pavattanti, rūpārūpabhavesu nappavattanti. Tasmā so
> **bhavacarimo**. Jhānesu purimajhānattayeva pavattanti, catutthe
> nappavattanti. Tasmā so **jhānacarimo. *
> Nidd-a I 176 *Kāyasaṅkhāranirodho**ti **assāsapassāsānaṃ**
> **nirodho**āvaraṇo, catutthajjhānasamāpattisamāpajjanaṃ.
>
> *
>
> > Even internally to the doctrine itself, let alone more mundane
> > practical reasons, this seems strange, because of the fact that it is
> > usually stated that breathing stops during saññāvedayitanirodha: i.e.,
> the
> > kāyasaṅkhārā are the first to cease upon entering saññāvedayitanirodha.
> >
>
> Where is this usually stated? I could not find any statement that the
> breath
> specifically first ceases in the attainment of cessation.
>
> In the Cullavedalla Sutta it is said that first the vacīsaṅkhāra ceases,
> and
> then the kāyasaṅkhāra and finally the cittasaṅkhāra: M I
> 301:*Saññāvedayitanirodhaṃ
> samāpajjantassa kho, āvuso visākha, bhikkhuno paṭhamaṃ
> **nirujjhati**vacīsaṅkhāro, tato
> **kāyasaṅkhāro**, tato cittasaṅkhāro ti.*
> This makes sense because the attainment of cessation is attained by way of
> attaining the jhanas first therefore the vacīsaṅkhāra, ceases first in the
> second jhana and the kāyasaṅkhāra first in the fourth, and the
> cittasaṅkhāra
> only in cessation.
> M-a II 365: *Paṭhamaṃ nirujjhati vacīsaṅkhāro**ti sesasaṅkhārehi paṭhamaṃ
> dutiyajjhāneyeva nirujjhati. **Tato kāyasaṅkhāro**ti tato paraṃ
> kāyasaṅkhāro
> catutthajjhāne nirujjhati. **Tato cittasaṅkhāro**ti tato paraṃ
> cittasaṅkhāro
> antonirodhe nirujjhati.*
>
> The Buddha attained parinibbaana while in the fourth jhana, D II 156:
> … *tatiyajjhānā
> vuṭṭhahitvā catutthaṃ jhānaṃ samāpajji, catutthajjhānā vuṭṭhahitvā
> samanantarā bhagavā parinibbāyi. *
> Anuruddha noticed that his breath had ceased there: Nā*hu assāsapassāso, **
> ṭhitacittassa** **tādino**; anejo santimārabbha, yaṃ kālamakarī muni. *
> The Theragatha commentary states that assāsapassāsā are the kāyasaṅkhārā
> and
> therefore were not present in the fourth jhana:
> Th-a III 70: *Tattha **nāhu assāsapassāsā, ṭhitacittassa tādino**ti
> anulomapaṭilomato
> anekākāravokārā sabbā samāpattiyo samāpajjitvā vuṭṭhāya sabbapacchā
> catutthajjhāne ṭhitacittassa tādino buddhassa bhagavato assāsapassāsā nāhu
> nāhesunti attho. Etena yasmā catutthajjhānaṃ samāpannassa kāyasaṅkhārā
> nirujjhanti. Kāyasaṅkhārāti ca assāsapassāsā vuccanti, tasmā
> catutthajjhānakkhaṇato paṭṭhāya assāsapassāsā nāhesunti dasseti.*
>
>
> I will look at the commentary, next, but I'm curious to know how the
> > more seasoned deal with such seeming 'anomalies'.
> >
>
> I don't see an anomaly here.
>
> Best wishes,
> Bhikkhu Nyanatusita
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> 
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]