Thanks Khristos,
Very well put. Great punch line,
Metta, Bryan
________________________________
From: Khristos Nizamis <nizamisk@...>
To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sun, July 18, 2010 10:41:04 AM
Subject: Re: [palistudy] Mmd-p.t passage regarding Kc 1 (2 of 3)
Dear Bryan,
"When we "drop words and thinking and get beyond them" (which I agree is one
of
the goals of Buddhism), what do we do for an encore?"
But when 'we' get there, 'we' won't be there. 'We' won't have to decide
what to do. I mean, I've never been able to find any dividing line between
'inside' and 'outside'. But I have a feeling, when 'we' get there, that
nothing will be left 'undone'. Not much different from your answer. "Right
situation, right relation, right function." "Form is form, emptiness is
emptiness." "Meaning is meaning, love is love."
I once asked a zen teacher, "Where does will come from?'" He replied by
telling me a classic zen story. The punchline of the story was: "Are you
still carrying that old corpse around?"
Please accept my translation of the passage you quoted below. I think that
was about the very first one I tried translating when I finally turned to
studying the Pali texts, at long last, not so long ago: I haven't altered
that first translation. (Mind you, I wasn't aiming at fluency.)
"But, indeed, that which, Monks, is called ‘citta’, or ‘mano’, or ‘viññāṇa’,
the ordinary person, in every way unlearned in spiritual knowledge, not
enough to turn away from, not enough to become detached, not enough to be
released. What is the reason for this? Because for a long time, Monks,
[that which is called the ‘citta’, ‘mano’, or ‘viññāṇa’] of the ordinary
person, in every way unlearned in spiritual knowledge, (has been) clung to,
(has been) cherished, (has been) grasped (thus): “This is mine, this I am,
this is my self”. Because of that, the ordinary person, in every way
unlearned in spiritual knowledge, not enough to turn away from, not enough
to become detached, not enough to be released."
Thanks for your reply, Bryan:
metta withou boundaries, without argument,
Khristos
On 18 July 2010 21:49, Bryan Levman <bryan.levman@...> wrote:
>
>
> Dear Khristos,
>
> Yes, you are quite right. Mind can be a trap. In the SN we find,
>
> Ya.m ca kho eta.m bhikkhave, vuccati citta.m itipi mano itipi vi~n~naa.na.m
>
> itipi, tatraassutavaa puthujjano naala.m nibbinditu.m, naala.m virajjitu.m,
>
> naala.m vimuccitu.m. Ta.m kissa hetu? Diigharatta.m heta.m bhikkhave,
> assutavato
> puthujjanassa ajjhosita.m mamaayita.m paraama.t.tha.m eta.m mama esohamasmi
> eso
> me attaati. Tasmaa tatraassutavaa puthujjano naala.m nibbinditu.m, naala.m
> virajjitu.m, naala.m vimuccitu.m.
>
> which Bodhi translates as
>
> "But, bhikkhus, as to that which is called 'mind' and 'mentality'
> and 'consciousness' -the uninstructed worldling is
> unable to experience revulsion towards it, unable to become dispassionate
> towards it and be liberated from it. For what reason?
> Because for a long time this has been held to by him, appropriated,
> and grasped thus: 'This is mine, this I am, this is my self:
> Therefore the uninstructed worldling is unable to experience
> revulsion towards it, unable to become dispassionate towards it
> and be liberated from it.
> (595).
>
> When we "drop words and thinking and get beyond them" (which I agree is one
> of
> the goals of Buddhism), what do we do for an encore? i. e. how does one
> function
> in the world? I have always considered the three cornerstones of Buddhism
> to be
> 1) meditation 2) study of Buddhavacana 3) helping others. I'm not sure of
> the
> doctrinal basis for this - that is just my intuition,
>
>
> Metta, Bryan
>
> ________________________________
> From: Khristos Nizamis <nizamisk@... <nizamisk%40gmail.com>>
> To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com <palistudy%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sat, July 17, 2010 10:14:13 PM
>
> Subject: Re: [palistudy] Mmd-p.t passage regarding Kc 1 (2 of 3)
>
> Dear kind and venerable friends,
>
> Probably Jim is correct, in both senses: incorrect transmissions,
> straight-out misunderstandings; and we might add misunderstandings based on
> incorrect transmissions as a third category!
>
> But, on the other hand, quite seriously, isn't the most essential point of
> the verbal teachings - without any room for doubt - to get beyond the
> verbal
> teachings, to the experience that transcends all verbalising and thinking?
>
> You yourselves are very familiar with so many examples of this principle
> throughout the Nikāyā. Just one random, for example, from D i.45 (
> Brahmajālasuttaṃ):
>
> "yato kho, bhikkhave, bhikkhu channaṃ phassāyatanānaṃ samudayañca
> atthaṅgamañca
> assādañca ādīnavañca nissaraṇañca yathābhūtaṃ pajānāti, ayaṃ imehi
> sabbeheva uttaritaraṃ pajānāti."
>
> "It is, brethren, when a brother understands, as they really are, the
> origin
> and the end, the attraction, the danger, and the way of escape from the six
> realms of contact, that he gets to know what is above, beyond, them all."
> (Rhys Davids)
>
> That includes the work of mano, and of course, attachment to the work of
> mano, which is something which we have to be very careful of - both
> novices,
> like myself, and more experienced scholars, like yourselves - since our
> study of the Pali texts is very much a work of mano. And then, it's
> interesting to remember that vitakka vicāra are supposed to drop out
> completely already after the first jhāna! So, the very first step is to get
> from meditation with what might be called 'gross thinking' to meditation
> 'without gross thinking'. The texts can only be a springboard for that
> step.
>
> The value of the words and thinking that constitute the Buddhadhamma is to
> keep reminding us that we have to drop words and thinking and get beyond
> them. Would you agree with that?
>
> So I honestly believe (with all respect to Jim) that the Buddhavacana is
> not
> lost at all: to the contrary, the message is profoundly simple and direct
> amd ever-present. But it's the hardest thing in life to practise and
> attain. And we have to be careful that our reverence for and love for the
> 'medium' (which, like all else, is impermanent and susceptible of
> corruption
> and decay) doesn't prevent us from penetrating and acting upon the
> 'message'.
>
> Much metta,
>
> Khristos
>
> On 18 July 2010 08:19, Bryan Levman
><bryan.levman@...<bryan.levman%40yahoo.com>>
> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > Hi Jim,
> > < < I suspect that more than half of the original meaning of the
> > Buddhavacana
> > has already been lost and can never be fully recovered until the next
> > appearance of a Sammāsambuddha. Perhaps, with a lot of hard work we might
> > be
> > able to recover a tiny little bit...> >
> >
> > Do you mean from incorrect-transmission of the original oral teachings
> (i.
> > e.
> > mistaken alterations) or misunderstandings of the teachings, or both?
> >
> >
> > Bryan
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@...
><jimanderson_on%40yahoo.ca><jimanderson_on%
> 40yahoo.ca>>
> > To: palistudy@yahoogroups.com <palistudy%40yahoogroups.com> <palistudy%
> 40yahoogroups.com>
>
> > Sent: Sat, July 17, 2010 2:34:39 PM
> >
> > Subject: Re: [palistudy] Mmd-p.t passage regarding Kc 1 (2 of 3)
> >
> > Dear Khristos,
> >
> > Thanks for weighing in on the discussion with your ideas. You have given
> us
> >
> > much to think about. I will only touch on a small part for now and will
> > probably comment on some others later on when I have more time.
> >
> > You wrote:
> > (2.2) The second idea might seem even farther removed from you text and
> its
> > meaning, but there may also be an interesting parallelism. The root ‘pad’
> > in ‘ni.s-pad’ is supposed to have the primary meaning, ‘to fall’, and
> that
> > is probably where the sense of ‘pad’, ‘foot’, and hence ‘pada’ and
> ‘pāda’,
> > ‘step, pace, stride; footstep, footprint, footfall’ (audible and
> visible);
> > and so also, ‘word, verse, measure’, and so on. (There seems to be deep
> > connection between the movement of walking in steps and the movement of
> > speaking in words, which may be both analogical and ‘biological’.)
> >
> > Going back to the sense of ‘to fall’, cf. ‘padyate’ and ‘ni.spadyate’:
> > under
> > ‘pajjati’, PED notes that the Vedic ‘padyate’ had only the sense ‘to come
> > to
> > fall’, the later Skt. also ‘to go to’. >>
> >
> > Jim:
> > The Dhātumālā (the 2nd volume of the Saddanīti) gives "gati" (motion) as
> > the
> > meaning of the root "pad" (1127, 1493 pada gatiyaṃ). The root for "to
> fall"
> >
> > that I normally associate this with is "pat" (391, 1454 pata gatiyaṃ)
> > although "pad" and "pat" share the same root meaning. For "nippajjati"
> (or
> > nipphajjati) we might consider what the prefix (upasagga) "ni" could
> > possibly mean. One can find a list of its meanings in the Suttamālā (Sadd
> > III 885) which gives first a verse with 14 meanings followed by a
> paragraph
> >
> > with an example or two for each of its meanings. Unfortunately there are
> > none given for ni+pad among the very few examples. Sometimes if one
> checks
> > the commentaries one can find the meaning of a prefix given in a
> derivation
> >
> > (nibbacana). It would help if one could find such for a word derived from
> > ni+pad. If not, we're left with the Sadd list of 14 or the more extensive
> > one at Abh 1165-7.
> >
> > One could go through the two lists and come up with a short list of the
> > meanings for "ni" that seem to fit "pad". I think the meaning "avasāne"
> > (end, finish, comclusion) with its example "niṭṭhitaṃ" (finished,
> > completed)
> > could apply to ni + pad (to go to a conclusion, end) in the sense of "to
> > complete, finish, accomplish, perfect". Nipphanna has a close connection
> to
> >
> > siddha (cf. Abh 748), and probably also nipphatti to siddhi. Rūpasiddhi,
> > siddha, sijjhati are frequently used in describing how a word is formed.
> I
> > see another possibility with "vibhajane niddeso" suggestive of analysis.
> So
> >
> > it does seem to me that the original meaning depends on how we interpret
> > the
> > prefix "ni". I would like to mention that the meaning of the root "phal"
> is
> >
> > "nipphatti" according to Sadd (772 phala nipphattiyaṃ). When I think of
> > phala, I think of fruit, fruition, result.
> >
> > I suspect that more than half of the original meaning of the Buddhavacana
> > has already been lost and can never be fully recovered until the next
> > appearance of a Sammāsambuddha. Perhaps, with a lot of hard work we might
> > be
> > able to recover a tiny little bit...
> >
> > Best wishes, Jim
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
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