Re: update (kulaputta)

Dear Amara,

> Hi,
>
> As I mentioned to Nina, Yasa before his ordination was called 'Yasa
> kulaputta' in the Thai Tipitaka.  I believe 'kulaputta' occurs in
the
> ancient texts a lot, including this passage from the Visuddhimagga,
in
> the section on siilas:
>
> Iti aya.m pa~ncavidhopi sa.mvaro, yaa ca paapabhiirukaana.m
> kulaputtaana.m sampattavatthuto virati, sabbampeta.m
sa.mvarasiilanti
> veditabba.m.

It's true that 'kulaputta' occurs many times (in the hundreds) in the
Tipitaka. Unlike ~Naa.namoli's 'clansmen', P.M. Tin translates
'kulaputtaana.m' here as 'noble youths' on p. 9.

> As to the 'gotara', I'm sorry for the extra a, it should be gotra as
> in 'gotrabhuu'.  But you are right, in the text there was also
'gotta
>  ' I think, in another form:
>
> Gotamaati bhagavanta.m gottena aalapati. [the Visuddhimagga,
introduction]

I agree that gotta and gotra are just different forms of the same word
and both are derived from the root 'gup' -- to protect. I think it
would be better still, when quoting, to be more exact in the
references whenever possible. As an example (your first quote): Vis.
I.18. It makes it easier for others to check out the sources and saves
time too!

> > The 'putta' part has the meaning of 'son' but 'kula' is somewhat
> > unclear to me as I don't know much about its meaning or perhaps it
has
> > several meanings. At Vin III 8, the Buddha says regarding the
rapid
> > disappearance of the Brahma-faring: "ye te pacchimaa saavakaa
> > naananaamaa naanagottaa naanajaccaa naanakulaa pabbajitaa, ..."

A correction I'd like to make here: the 'naana-' in the four words
above should read 'naanaa-'.

> In the translation we did we usually try to pick the one closest to
> what we think is meant by the text, perhaps because we are not
> familiar with too many English translations of the ancient texts,
but
> mainly use the Thai and Paali ones.

I found a useful remark in a number of commentaries on 'kulaputta'
that speak of two kinds:
1) jaatikulaputta -- a gentleman by birth
2) aacaarakulaputta -- a gentleman by virtue of uprightness (this one
is in the exact words of the CPD)

eg. kulaputtoti jaatikulaputtopi aacaarakulaputtopi. -- Ps V 33

A Mahaa.tiikaa comment on another 'kulaputto' at Vis. I.43 reads:
aacaarakulaputto vaa hi pa.tipajjitu.m sakkoti jaatikulaputto vaa. So
again both kinds of kulaputtas apply here as well. There are also a
number of remarks in several commentaries where only one of the two
applies (not both).


> I wouldn't want to cause any undue delay, thank you very much for
your
> detailed explanations, above, and looking forward to more Kaccayana,

I don't wish to discourage you from posting further questions and
comments on this account. I guess I just wasn't ready to take on
something like this so soon before I even got started on Kaccayana. A
good solution might be to first treat a word posted here from the
linguistic perspective of the old Pali grammarians. The study of
single words is an important one that interest me very much and I
wouldn't mind studying the derivations of 'kulaputta', 'gotta', and
'gotra'. I came across a very interesting sutta in Kaccayana (Kc 658)
that deals with the 'tta' and 'tra' kit affixes of these and many
other words and even explains the basic meaning of the words which is
especially valuable. We could also investigate the roots: kul, puu,
and gup. The root of putta is 'puu' to cleanse which is also,
interestingly, the root of pu~n~na. I think this approach will take us
right to the core of the matter and provide a good foundation for the
study of Pali words.

Best wishes,
Jim