Re: update (kulaputta)

--- In palistudy@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@...>
wrote:
> Dear Amara,
>
> > Hi,
> >
> > As I mentioned to Nina, Yasa before his ordination was called 'Yasa
> > kulaputta' in the Thai Tipitaka.  I believe 'kulaputta' occurs in
> the
> > ancient texts a lot, including this passage from the Visuddhimagga,
> in
> > the section on siilas:
> >
> > Iti aya.m pa~ncavidhopi sa.mvaro, yaa ca paapabhiirukaana.m
> > kulaputtaana.m sampattavatthuto virati, sabbampeta.m
> sa.mvarasiilanti
> > veditabba.m.
>
> It's true that 'kulaputta' occurs many times (in the hundreds) in the
> Tipitaka. Unlike ~Naa.namoli's 'clansmen', P.M. Tin translates
> 'kulaputtaana.m' here as 'noble youths' on p. 9.
>
> > As to the 'gotara', I'm sorry for the extra a, it should be gotra as
> > in 'gotrabhuu'.  But you are right, in the text there was also
> 'gotta
> >  ' I think, in another form:
> >
> > Gotamaati bhagavanta.m gottena aalapati. [the Visuddhimagga,
> introduction]
>
> I agree that gotta and gotra are just different forms of the same word
> and both are derived from the root 'gup' -- to protect. I think it
> would be better still, when quoting, to be more exact in the
> references whenever possible. As an example (your first quote): Vis.
> I.18. It makes it easier for others to check out the sources and saves
> time too!
>
> > > The 'putta' part has the meaning of 'son' but 'kula' is somewhat
> > > unclear to me as I don't know much about its meaning or perhaps it
> has
> > > several meanings. At Vin III 8, the Buddha says regarding the
> rapid
> > > disappearance of the Brahma-faring: "ye te pacchimaa saavakaa
> > > naananaamaa naanagottaa naanajaccaa naanakulaa pabbajitaa, ..."
>
> A correction I'd like to make here: the 'naana-' in the four words
> above should read 'naanaa-'.
>
> > In the translation we did we usually try to pick the one closest to
> > what we think is meant by the text, perhaps because we are not
> > familiar with too many English translations of the ancient texts,
> but
> > mainly use the Thai and Paali ones.
>
> I found a useful remark in a number of commentaries on 'kulaputta'
> that speak of two kinds:
> 1) jaatikulaputta -- a gentleman by birth
> 2) aacaarakulaputta -- a gentleman by virtue of uprightness (this one
> is in the exact words of the CPD)
>
> eg. kulaputtoti jaatikulaputtopi aacaarakulaputtopi. -- Ps V 33
>
> A Mahaa.tiikaa comment on another 'kulaputto' at Vis. I.43 reads:
> aacaarakulaputto vaa hi pa.tipajjitu.m sakkoti jaatikulaputto vaa. So
> again both kinds of kulaputtas apply here as well. There are also a
> number of remarks in several commentaries where only one of the two
> applies (not both).
>
>
> > I wouldn't want to cause any undue delay, thank you very much for
> your
> > detailed explanations, above, and looking forward to more Kaccayana,
>
> I don't wish to discourage you from posting further questions and
> comments on this account. I guess I just wasn't ready to take on
> something like this so soon before I even got started on Kaccayana. A
> good solution might be to first treat a word posted here from the
> linguistic perspective of the old Pali grammarians. The study of
> single words is an important one that interest me very much and I
> wouldn't mind studying the derivations of 'kulaputta', 'gotta', and
> 'gotra'. I came across a very interesting sutta in Kaccayana (Kc 658)
> that deals with the 'tta' and 'tra' kit affixes of these and many
> other words and even explains the basic meaning of the words which is
> especially valuable. We could also investigate the roots: kul, puu,
> and gup. The root of putta is 'puu' to cleanse which is also,
> interestingly, the root of pu~n~na. I think this approach will take us
> right to the core of the matter and provide a good foundation for the
> study of Pali words.
>
> Best wishes,
> Jim


Dear Jim,

Thank you for this,

I am glad that the Kaccayana includes the study of vocabulary and
their roots, and am willing to wait for us to get to that.  In fact
what I really lack personally is mainly grammatical knowledge, for
example declensions do not exist in the Thai language, which was my
main problem when studying French when I was young.  I would be much
more interested in going through the Kaccayana in the proper order as
you had begun earlier, thank you very much in advance,

Amara