Re: update

--- In palistudy@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@...>
wrote:
> Dear Amara,
>
> > Dear Jim and Yong Peng,
> >
> > I'm very happy to hear that we will be studying more Paali, I really
> > look forward to the continuation of grammar lessons.
> >
> > I would like to consult you and the list on another small matter as
> > well:  Lately some friends and I have been doing some translations
> and
> > came across the word 'kulaputta' which has been translated as
> > 'clansman', which we thought was a bit too wide, closer perhaps to
> the
> > word 'gotara'.
>
> I think it would help if you give a reference to where in the texts
> you came across this word 'kulaputta' or any other word you wish to
> bring up in the future. The word 'gotara' is unfamiliar to me and
> there is no listing of it in PED as far as I can see. Perhaps you
> meant 'gotta'?
>

Hi,

As I mentioned to Nina, Yasa before his ordination was called 'Yasa
kulaputta' in the Thai Tipitaka.  I believe 'kulaputta' occurs in the
ancient texts a lot, including this passage from the Visuddhimagga, in
the section on siilas:

Iti aya.m pa~ncavidhopi sa.mvaro, yaa ca paapabhiirukaana.m
kulaputtaana.m sampattavatthuto virati, sabbampeta.m sa.mvarasiilanti
veditabba.m.

As to the 'gotara', I'm sorry for the extra a, it should be gotra as
in 'gotrabhuu'.  But you are right, in the text there was also 'gotta
  ' I think, in another form:

Gotamaati bhagavanta.m gottena aalapati. [the Visuddhimagga, introduction]


>   I know the closest ot 'kula' would be 'family', which
> > would make 'kulaputta' something like 'son of a [good] family',
> which
> >  we have been using so far.  Perhaps the meaning is more like
> > 'gentleman', for example.  Some of us are leaning towards 'man of
> > lineage' as best choice of the possibilities, at the moment; could
> you
> > please give us your opinion?
>
> The 'putta' part has the meaning of 'son' but 'kula' is somewhat
> unclear to me as I don't know much about its meaning or perhaps it has
> several meanings. At Vin III 8, the Buddha says regarding the rapid
> disappearance of the Brahma-faring: "ye te pacchimaa saavakaa
> naananaamaa naanagottaa naanajaccaa naanakulaa pabbajitaa, ..." which
> IB Horner translates as: "those last disciples of various names, of
> various clans, of various social strata, who had gone forth from
> various families, ..." and the commentary (Sp I 187) on this explains
> 'various names' as Buddharakkhito, Dhammarakkhito, etc., 'various
> clans' as Gotamo, Moggallaano, etc., 'various social strata' as noble,
> brahmin, etc. (which seems to be referring to the va.n.na classes),
> and 'various families' such as a noble family, etc. or a high, low, or
> illustrious familiy, or a family of great wealth, and so on. Perhaps
> this might help a little. I'm sure one could spend a whole day digging
> up quite a bit more. My preference is for 'son of a good family', but
> a lot depends on how familiar one is with the Pali term and I have to
> admit I'm not all that familiar with it so far. I tend to be uncertain
> about the best choice of a word for a translation and I usually end up
> just going along with the more widely accepted ones unless I have a
> good reason to disagree. I would then state my case in a footnote.
>

In the translation we did we usually try to pick the one closest to
what we think is meant by the text, perhaps because we are not
familiar with too many English translations of the ancient texts, but
mainly use the Thai and Paali ones. 


> > Or perhaps we should discuss this on your other list?
>
> You're welcome to raise such questions here every now and again but
> not so often as to cause long delays in the study of Kaccayana's
> grammar as there's only so much I can do at any one time. However,
> others are welcome to jump in and discuss with you any topic relating
> to Pali without me necessarily getting involved.
>
> Best wishes,
> Jim

I wouldn't want to cause any undue delay, thank you very much for your
detailed explanations, above, and looking forward to more Kaccayana,

Anumodana with your studies,

Amara