Re: Kc 263 (seyyo, se.t.tho)substitutes

Dear Nina,

<< Thank you very much. It is useful to learn more notions of grammar,
I will need them when reading Buddhaghosa. >>

I'm sure that what we learn from the old grammars will be of great
help in our reading of the texts and commentaries and solving many of
the problems we're constantly faced with.

<< I have some problems here, but no need to answer soon. Things will
also become clearer as you continue with Kaccayana.
You said amoha bhaavaa is unusual, but I learnt that because of the
metrum we can find unusual forms and that words at the end may be
shortened. I am not sure whether bhaavaa is a shortened form of
bhavanaa. >>

Although it seems possible that 'bhaava' could be a shortened form, we
need to confirm this by finding something in the commentaries for
support (and it doesn't have to go with amoha). I thought of looking
under 'asammohabhaava' and found an 'asammohabhaavasiddhito' in the
Itivuttaka commentary (Itv-a I 33) for which there is still no English
translation available. There are also a few occurrences of
'amohabhaava' in the Mohavicchedanii (1) and the
Nettivibhaavinii-.tiikaa (2). The latter seems to be explaining
'amohabhaavaa' with 'amohabhaavena'. Also of interest are the 7
meanings of 'bhaava' given in the Abhidhaanappadiipikaa (§807):
padattha, sattaa (existence), adhippaaya, kriyaa, sabhaava, liilaa,
purisitthindriya (purisa-itthi-indriya). Now 'kriyaa' (activity,
function) might suit: 'and (by understanding) the meaning through the
activity/action of non-confusion or non-bewilderment regarding the
letters and words' which might be a good compromise. I think moha
neatly describes our state of mind (a lot of the time) when trying to
read the Pali and hopefully a study of Kaccayana, etc. will go a long
way in helping.

<< op 04-07-2003 18:36 schreef Jim Anderson op
jimanderson_on@...:

> 263 (265). pasatthassa so ca.
> sabbasseva pasatthasaddassa so aadeso hoti, jaadeso ca iya i.t.tha
> iccetesu paccayesu.
> seyyo, se.t.tho, jeyyo, je.t.tho.
>
> 263 (Sinhalese §265). And 'sa' is the substitute of 'pasattha'
> (praised).
> Of just the whole word 'pasattha', there is the substitute 'sa' and
> 'ja' before these affixes: iya, i.t.tha.
> seyyo, se.t.tho, jeyyo, je.t.tho.
N: The notion substitute, aadeso, is not clear to me. What does it
replace? It replaces something? sa and jo: where is sa? Jo we find in
seyyo and jeyyo, elder (jiiyaati: to become old). ja in iya, but also
in i.t.tha, desired?

J: It replaces the entire word 'pasattha'. My translations tend to be
rather literal but have the advantage of making it easier to follow
the Pali. To understand many of these rules, one has to have some
familiarity with the rules of interpretation (paribhaasaa). The use of
the genitive case in 'pasatthassa' implies that 'of pasattha' is to be
interpreted as 'in the room/place of 'pasattha''. So now instead of
'pasattha' we have only 'sa' or 'ja' to which are directly added the
affix 'iya' or 'i.t.tha'. Sandhi is involved here: a + i > e, but I'd
have to look for a rule explaining the addition of the extra 'y' as in
seyya. The 'sa' and 'ja' are contained in the first two letters eg.
seyya (from sa+iya). It looks as though the 'ja' (Skt. jya) is related
to the root 'ji' as in jiiyati but note that jeyya and je.t.tha
can also have the same meaning as seyya, se.t.tha. The 'sa' (Skt.
"sra) may similarly be related to siri ("sri) as I saw in Warder on
comparison.

> J: 262. vu.d.dhassa jo iyi.t.thesu.
> 'ja' is the substitute of vu.d.dha (old, aged) before iya & i.t.tha.
>
> "And 'sa'" means that 'ja' is included here also while 'sa' is
> excluded from §262.
N: I did not get this.

J: The 'And' means that we include 'ja' from the previous sutta. Jeyya
and je.t.tha can also mean 'better' or 'best' since 'ja' can also be
substituted for 'pasattha'.

J:  Here's the Sinhalese version:
>
> sabbassa pasatthasaddassa so aadeso ca hoti jo aadeso ca iya i.t.tha
> iccetesu paccayesu paresu. sabbe ime pasatthaa ayamimesa.m visesena

> pasatthoti seyyo. sabbe ime pasatthaa ayamimesa.m visesena
> pasatthoti se.t.tho. jeyyo, je.t.tho. casaddaggaha.na.m
> dutiyaaadesasampi.n.danattha.m.
>
> Of the whole word 'pasattha', there is the substitute 'ja' as well
> as 'ja' before these subsequent affixes: iya, i.t.tha.

J: hmm... just noticed another mistake. The first 'ja' should have
been 'sa'.

> "seyyo" -- all these that are praised; of them this one is praised
> in particular.
>
> "se.t.tho" -- all these that are praised; of them this one is
> praised in particular.

J: "all these that are praised;" was changed to "all these are
praised;"

> jeyyo, je.t.tho.
>
> The inclusion of the word 'ca' is for the sake of adding a second
> substitute ('ja').]
N: I follow the transl. word by word, but I do not get the contents.
And the same is said of seyyo and se.t.tho?

J: I hope my corrections helped. Sorry for the confusion. Let me know
if you need further clarification. As I have done with this sutta, I
think it might be a good idea to freely move around the grammar as
needed while at the same time continuing the numerical sequence of the
rules 1, 2, 3, etc. more slowly and in greater detail. I've been
studying up on the word 'attho', the first word of Kc 1. The meaning
that it has in this sutta is not a problem but when I look at the
other meanings and the several derivations it has, I get confused. I
found an interesting commentary on it at Spk II 334 giving six
meanings with examples, so that's a good start. I find there is a
clash between what I'm reading in the texts and how modern
lexicographers and translators are handling the word. One meaning of
'attha' that is of interest to me is 'kaara.na' (cause) which is often
used to explain other words (eg. nimitta, pariyaaya) in the
commentaries and one that gives me some difficulty. I'm aware of a
threefold kaara.na which includes ~naapaka-kaara.na (an informing
cause). I hope to post more on this later. I'm taking tomorrow
(Monday) off from the computer.

Best wishes,
Jim