Re: approach to texts and dvanda

Dear Nina,

> Dear Jim,
> This is a goood demonstration of the way you work. I like your
approach to
> the texts very much, the best way, and not always found among Pali
scholars.
> The checking with other texts you do, your openmindedness for other
> interpretations, etc. You go into meanings very deeply. I also like
it that
> you say that a translation is never really finished. Very realistic.
You
> keep on considering.

Thank-you for showing your appreciation and the encouragement. I
try to do the best I can.

> Now this is the reason I am not inclined to go to other Pali lists.
What can
> that Pali list offer? What is Robert's opinion? I have so little
spare time
> and besides, I keep on reading Pali anyway.

Understood.

> But writing out a translation is of course another matter.
> dvanda compound: I found it in Warder, Ch 15, a twin compound. Thus,
> sariiragu.naana.m: concerning virtue and (size of) body. These
determine the
> degree of the akusala kamma patha of killing. Now it is clear. The
second
> one of the dvanda is usually the more important one. As in
maataapitu: this
> should be translated as father and mother.
> Best wishes
> Nina.

You did exactly what I did. Look up dvanda in Warder. It's more of a
brief introduction than a full treatment. I also checked Aggavamsa and
Panini and found much more. There are two basic types of dvanda
compounds:

1. itaretarayoga-dvanda: mutual conjunction (in the plural)
2. samaahaara-dvanda: which Warder refers to as the collective noun in
     the neuter singular, p.97

Panini's Sanskrit grammar (2.2.32-4) gives a number of rules that
govern the order of words in a Sanksrit dvandva (Skt. spelling).
These are:
32. a word ending in a short i or u goes first (hariharaau);
33. a word beginning with a vowel and ending in 'a' goes first;
34. a word that has fewer vowels is placed first;
       and from some of its vartikas:
       - a word consisting of only light vowels is placed first;
       - the more honourable of the two is placed first (eg.
          maataapitarau);
       - in a number compound the smaller number is placed first.
For Pali, Aggava.msa gives a quote from the Niruttipit.aka that
includes a rule much like no. 34. In considering word order in a Pali
dvanda one might look to see if any of the above Sanskrit rules apply.
I think Warder is being too simplistic in mentioning the dominant
position (like in a tappurisa) of the second word in some cases. It's
more complicated. It is not clear why 'gu.na' is placed after
'sariira' as it seems to go against all the above rules, especially
no. 34. B. Bodhi translates 'sariiragu.naana.m' in a similar passage
in his translation of the DN 1 commentary: 'the physical body and the
moral qualities' -- The All-Embracing Net of Views, p. 113.

Another point to consider (as explained in the Saddaniti) is that in
the case of an itaretaradvanda ending in a plural like
'sariiragu.naana.m' the grammatical number of each of the words
'sariira' and 'gu.na' can be interpreted as either singular or plural
so there are four possibilities: body and quality; body and qualities;
bodies and quality; or bodies and qualities. You'd have to decide on
which from the context in the passage. B. Bodhi decided on the second
one.

Jim


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