Re: Chiggala Sutta

--- In palistudy@..., "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@...> wrote:
> Dear Amara,
>
> >Dear Jim,
> >
> >I have a little question, I was glad to find the already translated
> >Chiggala Sutta on the web
> ><http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/samyutta/sn56-048.html>, but
> >found it strange this version used the words 'sheer coincidence' in
> >relation with rebirth.  I looked up the Thai version and the
> >translation was 'after a very long time, it could sometimes happen
> >(that)'.  I do not know what the original Pali is, perhaps you
could
> >tell us which is closer?
>
> There are two Chiggala Suttas (SN LVI.47 & 48) in the same vagga and
I
> suspect that you're comparing the Thai version of no. 47 with the
English
> version of no. 48. In no. 48 the Pali word for 'sheer coincidence'
is
> 'adhicca.m' which is translated as 'unlikely' at GS v 384 and
defined in CPD
> as 'occuring only by a mere chance'. The Thai translation you read
as 'after
> a very long time' corresponds to the Pali phrase 'diighassa addhuno
> accayena' in the preceding Chiggala Sutta (no. 47) which is
translated as
> 'after the lapse of a long time' at GS v 383. 'it could sometimes
happen
> (that)' comes close to 'adhicca.m', don't you think?
>
> Best wishes,
> Jim


Dear Jim,

Thank you very much for the detailed explanation and for pointing me
to the second sutta, which I have checked.  According to the Thai
translation (I am using the new Budsir TT 2.0 CD version) the second
sutta (which they call Chiggala Sutta II) they simply translated the
phrase as 'is a difficult thing' (in Thai 'pen khong yahg').  It would
seem that the English is closer, although I am still wondering why
rebirth should be seen almost as a game of chance.  Perhaps because it
depends so much on that last vithi citta series for which kamma from
our endless samsara of accumulated kamma produces the last arammana? 
Or perhaps to stress the difficulty of being born a human at all?  Or
both…  Certainly it shows the dangers of samsara, unless we become at
least the sotapana and permanently eliminate birth in the lower
worlds.  Just my rambling thougths!

In any case thank you again for your kindnesses, and anumodana,

Amara