Re: twofold ta.nhaa

Dear Jim and Sarah,

I totally agree with Rob, do translate it, Sarah, and have Jim correct
it as Nina did, that should be so great, and very helpful for us all.
  In the meantime may I remind Jim of my 'citta' passage from long ago?
  I think that it should be fun to compare the language as well.

Lots of work for you, sir!

Your grateful student thanking you in advance,

Amara


--- In palistudy@..., Robert Kirkpatrick <robertkirkpatrick@...>
wrote:
> Jim,
> Can I just add that I think this is a very worthwhile
> undertaking. We can all look and perhaps we won't get a firm
> conclusion but maybe we will learn something.
> robert
> --- Jim Anderson <jimanderson_on@...> wrote:
> > Dear Sarah,
> >
> > >No hurry at all, but when either of you have time, I'm keen
> > to hear
> > >(or rather have analysed by the 'experts' the Pali
> > commentaries
> > >relating to those 'tanha' passages discussed earlier on dsg.
> > >(Sorry I don't have the exact refs in mind as I write this
> > quickly).
> >
> > Are you thinking of a line by line translation and analysis?
> > It would be
> > fairly lengthy undertaking but if you really insist we can
> > have a go at it
> > but with no guarantee of understanding what it's really all
> > about. I have
> > clipped what I believe to be the relevant passages from the
> > three Netti
> > commentaries in case you or others would like to look them
> > over and maybe
> > try to make sense of them or translate while I work on my
> > response to Nina's
> > latest message.
> >
> > netti p.87
> >
> > tattha ta.nhaa duvidhaa: kusalaa pi akusalaa pi.
> >
> > akusalaa sa.msaaragaaminii, kusalaa apacayagaaminii
> > pahaanata.nhaa.
> >
> > nett-a
> >
> > tattha kusalaa ti kusaladhammaaramma.naa.
> >
> > kusala-saddo cettha baahitikasutte (Myanmar MN 2.358 aadayo)
> > viya
> > anavajjatthe da.t.thabbo.
> >
> > kasmaa panettha ta.nhaa kusalapariyaayena uddha.taa?
> >
> > he.t.thaa desanaahaare vipallaasahetubhaavena ta.nha.m
> > uddharitvaa tassaa
> > vasena sa.mkilesapakkho dassito.
> >
> > vicittapa.tibhaanataaya pana idhaapi ta.nhaamukheneva
> > vodaanapakkha.m
> > dassetu.m kusalapariyaayena ta.nhaa uddha.taa.
> >
> > tattha sa.msaara.m gametiiti sa.msaaragaaminii,
> > sa.msaaranaayikaati attho.
> >
> > apacaya.m nibbaana.m gametiiti apacayagaaminii.
> >
> > katha.m pana ta.nhaa apacayagaaminiiti? aaha
> > ``pahaanata.nhaa''ti.
> >
> > tada"ngaadippahaanassa hetubhuutaa ta.nhaa.
> >
> > katha.m pana ekantasaavajjaaya ta.nhaaya kusalabhaavoti?
> >
> > sevitabbabhaavato.
> >
> > yathaa ta.nhaa, eva.m maanopi duvidho kusalopi akusalopi, na
> > ta.nhaa evaati
> > ta.nhaaya nidassanabhaavena maano vutto.
> >
> > nett-t
> >
> > 53. kusaladhammaaramma.naati kusaladhamme uddissa
> > pavattimatta.m
> > sandhaaya vutta.m, na tesa.m aaramma.napaccayata.m idha
> > ``kusalaa
> > dhammaa''ti lokuttaradhammaana.m adhippetattaa.
> >
> > na hi kadaaci anupaadaaniyaa dhammaa upaadaanaaramma.naa
> > honti.
> >
> > phaladhamme uddissa pavattaaya ta.nhaaya gahitattaa ``kusala
> > ...pe...
> > da.t.thabbo''ti vutta.m.
> >
> > desanaahaareti desanaahaarasampaate.
> >
> > katha.m pana kusalabhaavoti ``kusalaa''ti vacanamatta.m
> > gahetvaa codeti,
> > ta~nca nidassanamatta.m da.t.thabba.m, pahaanahetubhaavopissaa
> > siyaa
> > codakena sampa.ticchitova.
> >
> > ``maanopi duvidho''tiaadinaa maanassa ca tassaa ta.nhaaya ca
> > sevitabbabhaavo akusalaana.m pahaanaaya, kusalaana.m
> > uppattiyaa ca
> > paccayabhaavato.
> >
> > nett-v
> >
> > tattha tatthaati tasmi.m ``arakkhitena
> > cittenaa''tiaadisuttatthe
> > desanaahaarasampaatena sa.mva.n.nite akusaladhamme
> > ``ta.nhaa''ti
> > niddhaaritaa sabbata.nhaa.
> >
> > kusalaapiiti catubhuumake kusale uddissa pavattaa ta.nhaapi.
> >
> > akusalaapii ti akusaladhamme uddissa pavattaa ta.nhaapiiti
> > duvidhaa hotiiti
> > vicayitabbaa. tena vutta.m .tiikaaya.m --
> > ``kusaladhammaaramma.naati
> > kusaladhamme uddissa pavattamatta.m sandhaaya vutta.m, na
> > tesa.m
> > aaramma.napaccayata.m, idha `kusalaa dhammaa'ti
> > lokuttaradhammaanampi
> > adhippetattaa''ti.
> >
> > ``kusalaa  ta.nhaa ki.mgaaminii, akusalaa ta.nhaa ki.m
> > gaaminii''ti
> > pucchitabbattaa ``akusalaa sa.msaaragaaminii''tiaadi vutta.m.
> >
> > atha vaa ``katamo kusalaakusalata.nhaana.m viseso''ti
> > pucchitabbattaa
> > ``akusalaa sa.msaaragaaminii''tiaadi vutta.m.
> >
> > ``ta.nhaa naama sa.msaaragaaminii hotu, katha.m
> > apacayagaaminii''ti
> > vattabbattaa ``pahaanata.nhaa''ti vutta.m, pahaanassa
> > hetubhuutaa ta.nhaa
> > pahaanata.nhaati attho, pahaatabbata.nha.m aagamma ya.m
> > pahaana.m
> > pavattetabba.m, tena pavattetabbena pahaanena apacaya.m
> > gacchatiiti vutta.m
> > hoti.
> >
> > ``ki.m pana ta.nhaayeva kusalaakusalaati dubbidhaa, udaahu
> > a~n~nopi
> > kusalaakusalaati dubbidho''ti vattabbattaa ``maanopii''tiaadi
> > vutta.m.
> > ``katamo maano kusalo, katamo maano akusalo''ti
> > pucchitabbattaa ``ya.m
> > maana.m nissaaya maana.m pajahati, aya.m maano kusalo.
> >
> > yo pana maano dukkha.m nibbattayati, aya.m maano akusalo''ti
> > vutta.m.
> >
> > tattha ya.m maana.m ...pe... kusaloti ya.m maana.m nissaaya
> > upanissaaya
> > pahaana.m pavattita.m, tena pahaanena santaane
> > uppajjanaaraha.m maana.m
> > pajahati, aya.m upanissayapaccayabhuuto maano phaluupacaarena
> > kusalo.
> >
> > yo pana ...pe... akusaloti yo pana maano parahi.msanaadivasena
> > pavattamaano
> > hutvaa attano ca parassa ca dukkha.m nibbattayati, aya.m maano
> > akusaloti
> > vicayitvaa veditabbo.
> >
> > ``sa.msaaraapacayagaaminiisu taasu ta.nhaasu katamaa
> > apacayagaaminii
> > ta.nhaa kusalaa''ti pucchitabbattaa ``kusalaa''ti vuttaaya
> > ta.nhaaya
> > saruupa.m dassetu.m ``tattha ya.m nekkhammasita''ntiaadi
> > vutta.m.
> >
> > tatthaati taasu sa.msaaraapacayagaaminiisu ta.nhaabhuutaasu
> > kusalaakusalaasu. aya.m ta.nhaa kusalaati sambandho.
> >
> > ``ariyaa puggalaa santa.m aayatana.m ya.m ariyaphaladhamma.m
> > sacchikatvaa
> > upasampajja viharanti, ta.m aayatana.m ariyaphaladhamma.m
> > aha.m kudaassu
> > sacchikatvaa viharissa''nti patthayantassa tassa kulaputtassa
> > tasmi.m
> > ariyaphale pihaa uppajjati, pihaapaccayaa ya.m domanassa.m
> > uppajjati, ida.m
> > domanassa.m ``nekkhammasita''nti vuccati.
> >
> > aya.m ariyaphale pihaasa"nkhaataa ta.nhaa kusalaa anavajjaa
> > anavajjaariyaphaladhamma.m uddissa pavattattaati
> > vicayitabba.m.
> >
> >
> >
> >
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