Dear Jim,
thank you for your reply. I have to think over a few things.
Op 2-jun-2009, om 19:15 heeft Jim Anderson het volgende geschreven:

> In verse 11, there is the term "sappa~n~naa" which I translate as "the
> wise" and it would seem odd to translate "vi~n~nuu" as "the wise"
> also. Buddhaghosa (Vism VII.85) has an interesting gloss on
> "vi~n~nuuhi" in the passage you quote (svaakkhaato. . .), i.e.,
> "sabbehi pi uggha.tita~n~nuu-aadiihi vi~n~nuuhi". There is a sutta at
> A II 135 that states four types of individuals called the
> uggha.tita~n~nuu, vipa~ncita~n~nuu, neyyo, & padaparamo. Detailed
> explanations can be found in the commentaries at Mp III 131 and Pp-a
> 222-3. I think the first three types can also apply to sappa~n~nas
> because they are capable of attaining arahatta while the padaparamo
> would have to be excluded for not having that capability in his
> present life.

-------
N: I think this refers to enlightenment, not necessarily to
arahatship. As to pada paramo, I think he is wise also, he is well on
the way, although he does not attain enlightenment in that life. I am
inclined to give pada a wider meaning, not just the letter.
I agree that for the translation we have to find another word for
sappa~n~naa. Not easy since there are many degrees of pa~n~naa. It
can be intellectual understanding of the teachings, and also direct
understanding acquired through insight. We could choose discernment,
insight, sagacity (I am looking at the Book of Analysis, para 525
which gives many synonyms).
-------

> J: Perhaps Aggava.msa makes the same distinction by
> including the padaparamo in "vi~n~nuu" but not in "sappa~n~naa"?

-------
N: I am looking at the context: sappa~n~naa pa.tipajjanti,
pa.tipattimatandikaa. It is closely connected with the practice
leading to direct understanding. He understands 'the letter and the
spirit'.
---------

> J: I
> think it is important for anyone who wishes to understand the proper
> meaning of the Pali texts to know the grammar or the characteristic(s)
> of the linguistic entities (saddalakkha.na) in the Pali language. Even
> in Kaccayana the first sutta has it that the meaning is correctly
> known only through the letters (attho akkharasa~n~naato -- Kc 1).

------
N: This is a strong text. I wonder what the word only is in Pali.
Someone may be very clever and know all the details of the grammar,
all the prefixes, suffixes. But still, he may be lacking in
something. Each part of the teachings points to the practice,
awareness and understanding of all realities. This is indispensable
for the understanding of the deep meaning of the texts.

>
> J: > This fits in with the following words:
> > paa.liyatthaavabodhena, yoniso satthusaasane.
> > sappa~n~naa pa.tipajjanti, pa.tipattimatandikaa..
> >
> > (and) with a proper understanding of the meaning of the Pali
> > in the Teacher's Saasana,
> > the wise practise the practice without giving up, 11
> >
> > yoniso pa.tipajjitvaa, dhamma.m lokuttara.m vara.m.
> > paapu.nanti visuddhaaya, siilaadipa.tipattiyaa..
> >
> > having practised properly, they reach the excellent supramundane
> state
> > by means of the purified practice of morality, and so on; 12
> > ------
> > N: as to siilaadipa.tipattiyaa: siila, samaadhi and pa~n~naa. As to
> > purified, visuddhaaya, this means: accompanied by right
> understanding
> > of realities, by insight.
>
> Jim: I would like to revise the second line to:
> "by means of the purified (or pure) practice beginning with virtue."
>
> Also, in verse 13, "grasp carefully" should be changed to "grasp
> well". "saadhuka.m" is glossed as "su.t.thu" (well, thoroughly) in
> commentaries..

--------
Nina.



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