From: Dipa .
Message: 13316
Date: 2009-02-16
> Hello Dipa,[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> Hopefully I may be able to give a little help herre.
>
> Word order in Pali is to a large degree flexible. Usually, in fact almost
> always, the verb comes last in a sentence. Usually (but not always) the
> direct object (here 'food') comes immediately before the verb. Usually (but
> not always) other qualifying expressions (here 'to the beggars') come before
> the direct object. Usually (but not always) the subject of the sentence
> (here 'the servants') comes first. Take a sentence of similar construction
> such as 'the Buddha gives instruction to the monks'. The (so called) usual
> order would be 'the Buddha to-the monks instruction gives / buddho
> bhikkhuunam saasanam dadaati'.
>
> By changing the usual order we can change the emphasis slightly. If we want
> to enphasise that is to the monks and not to others that he is giving
> instruction, we can take 'monks/bhikkhuunam' out of its usual place and
> emphasise it - just a little - by placing it directly before the verb
> 'Buddho saasanam bhukkhuunam dadaati'. We can emphasise it even more by
> placing it in an even more unusual position, right at the beginning of the
> sentence: 'saasanam buddho bhikkhuunam dadaati'. This is what you would do
> if for example someone asks you, 'Is the Buddha giving clothes to the
> monks', and you want to answer ''No, it's instruction that he's giving, not
> clothes', you could take 'instruction / saasanam' out of its usual place
> directly before the verb, and draw attentnion to it by putting it in that
> slightly unusual position at the beginning: saasanam buddho bhikkhuunam
> dadaati.'
>
> In fact one of the emphatic particles would in practice be used - words
> like 'hi' or 'eva', which you place immediately after a word to show that it
> is that word that you are emphasising. You may not have come to these yet
> but don't worry - you will, they are very easy, and they are very useful.
>
> In the English sentences 'the dogs bites the man' and 'the man bites the
> dog' we know who is doing what to whom by the word order - and by the word
> order alone. In Pali the 'usual' word order for 'the dog bites the man' is
> 'su.noo naram khaadati'. But if we change the order of the words and say
> 'naram su.noo khaadati', that is grammatically equally correct, but just
> emphases that it is the man (and not anyone or anything else) that the dog
> is biting. And of course we change the meaning to 'the man bites the dog'
> not by altering the word order, but by altering the endings: 'naro su.nam
> khaadati'.
>
> Now, we can doubly emphasise the extreme unusualness of the occurrence of a
> man biting a dog by taking the unusual step of putting the object after the
> verb, right at the end of the sentence: 'naro khaadati su.nam'. This is, of
> course, a very unusual word order, but is quite justifiable here to
> emphasise the effect of 'Wow! - did you see that!? - man biting dog!'.
>
> So you see, the order is not rigid, and there is no 'rule' about any
> particular word having to come directly before the verb, and certainly no
> rule (as you seem to have thought there might be) about words denoting human
> beings having to come directly before the verb. If the 'official' answers to
> the exercises have a different word order from the answers you have done,
> don't worry, chances are you are just as right as the 'official' answer.
> (Provided, of course, you have got everything else right - especially the
> word endings!)
>
> You are still in the early stages but you will find that you quickly get a
> feel for the balance of the sentence, and the differences of emphasis
> depending on word order. And bear in mind that sometimes it just makes no
> difference at all - often it is just a matter pure style and speaker's
> preference.
>
> I hope this make some sense - and good luck!
>
> Metta,
> James Whelan
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: dipaeightprecepter
> To: Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Friday, February 13, 2009 2:57 PM
> Subject: [Bulk] [Pali] Re: Pali grammar questions
>
> Hi Ria,
> I am still having difficulty with word order. How do you determine
> which word comes directly before the verb? Here is an example from
> lesson two which I missed.
> 12. The servants are giving food to the beggars.
> Does beggars get placed before the verb because they are human
> rather than the food getting placed before the verb? I have labeled
> beggars dative plural and food accusative singular. I thought that
> accusative always comes directly before the verb, but apparently that
> isn't true. The food is undergoing the action of being given as I see
> it. Why is beggars placed before the verb instead of food?
>
> thanks,
> Dipa
> -- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, "grasje" <grasje@...>
> wrote:
> >
> > Dear sister Dipa,
> >
> > You hit it right!
> > The nominative is for the doer of the action (the actor, the subject),
> > the accusative is for the thing or person undergoing the action (the
> > passive object).
> > The father is going, (with his chidren or with a wheelbarrow, that
> > does not matter)the father is singular, so the verb is in singular.
> >
> > The village is not dative singular, becase there is nothing "given" to
> > the village. (I once heard that the word dative comes from the old
> > indian word "dana") The village has to endure the going of the father,
> > and thus is accusative.
> >
> > In Narada's course, chapter 25 gives an overview of the use of the
> > cases. And it is a matter of a whole lot of practise. In English there
> > is only one case left: the possessive 's like in fathers's house. It
> > takes time to get used to the fact that in a sentences like "this is
> > the child" and "I see the child" the word for "child" has a different
> > ending. In "The child's toys" we have no problem with that fact.
> >
> > As I am dutch, I know nothing about Englisch grammars. Maybe one of
> > the other forum-members. (and I have the luck that I learned som
> > German, some 30 years ago, with dative, accustive and genitive
> > declensions)
> >
> > Kind regards
> >
> > Ria Glas
> >
> > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "dipaeightprecepter"
> > <dipaeightprecepter@> wrote:
> > >
> > > I am on lesson two of Elementary Pali Course. Here is number 13 to
> > > translate into Pali:
> > > "The father is going with the children to the village."
> > >
> > > How do you determine whether the verb is singular or plural?
> > > I need a rule or a pattern to follow to determine whether the verb is
> > > singular or plural.
> > >
> > > Why isn't "village" dative singular?
> > >
> > > If there is a resource with simple Pali and English grammar facts that
> > > you know of I would greatly appreciate it. My difficulties may be due
> > > to not being well educated in English grammar. I am struggling with
> > > determining what the object of a sentence is. I think I have hit on a
> > > rule that works for me. It is "The object is what the verb touches".
> > >
> > > Dipa
> > >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>