Re: pa.tikaroti

For those who are wondering what this discussion is about, here is the
passage from
my translation that has received some disapproval:

*Ajaatasattu's confession*

*101b *Venerable sir, I have committed an offence when I behaved in such a
foolish manner, in such a confused manner, in such an unwhole�some manner,
as to kill my father�a righteous man, a righteous rajah�for the sake of
sove�reign rulership.

Venerable sir, may the Blessed One please forgive my transgression as such,
so that I may restrain myself in the future."

*102 *"Yes, maharajah, you have transgressed in that you were so foolish,
so ignorant, so inept as to kill your father�a righteous man, a righteous
rajah�for the sake of sove�reign rulership.

But, maharajah, because you see your transgression as such and make amends
in accordance with the Dharma, we forgive [accept] your majesty.

For, maharajah, it is a cause of growth in the Dharma and Vinaya [Doctrine
and Discipline] of the noble ones when, seeing an offence as such, one makes
amends in accordance with the Dharma and shows restraint in the future."

*103* When this was said, the rajah Ajaatasattu Vedehi,putta of Magadha said
to the Blessed One:

"Well, then, venerable sir, we now depart. Many are our duties, much there
is to be done."

"Please, maharajah, do as you deem fit here."

The rajah Ajaatasattu Vedehi,putta of Magadha, joyfully approving of the
Bless�ed One's words, rose from his seat, bowed down to him, and, keeping
the Buddha to his right, departed.

*104 *As soon as the rajah Ajaatasattu Vedehi,putta of Magadha had
left, *[86]
*the Blessed One address��ed the monks:

"The rajah is uprooted, monks; the rajah is tormented! Had he not killed his
father�that righteous man, that righteous rajah�the dustless, stainless
Dharma eye would have arisen to him even as he sat in this very seat."

This is what the Blessed One said. The monk joyfully approved of the Blessed
One's words. [END]

Definitions of "critics":
(1) those who talk bad about the hard work of others, but are unable to
produce a better
work themselves;
(2) the pride and foolishness of others (often a cultural baggage) from
which we can
learn and not be what they are;
(3) anyone who claims to follow the Buddha but only counting the tears in
his rag-robe.

Please don't take me too seriously, much less yourself. :)

Piya Tan

On Jan 21, 2008 9:56 AM, Piya Tan <dharmafarer@...> wrote:

> Dear Jayarava,
>
> First of all I'm delighted that you have an interest in Pali Suttas. Gone
> are the days of
> "Theravada-bashing" I hope. Even then, I try to keep up with a remarkable
> group of
> Buddhists monastics and lay followers who are working at a
> cross-linguistic approach
> (using whatever ancient texts are available) to have a better idea what
> the Buddha is
> trying to tell us through all the layers of oral transmission and later
> traditions.
>
> I work with the Pali texts as a "living" religion, not as a dead "book
> religion." When I
> translate I try to remind myself would my audience understand this, and
> would this
> help in their meditation (as it would my own practice).
>
> This is difficult that there is no common effort or some kind of global
> committee of
> qualified Palilogists and Buddhologists who are also practitioners who can
> harmoniously
> work together to produce a really acceptable and effective translation.
>
> I value criticisms in that it is a sign of concern that things can be
> better.
>
> The translation regarding "confession" needs some rethinking, you are
> right.
>
> All that we have to understand the Buddha Word is language, and we have to
> make the
> best of it. I'm not sure even if Pali (amongst the numerous other
> languages used in the
> ancient Buddhist text) exactly conveys the Buddha's message completely and
> correctly.
> For that reason we often hear the Buddha telling us he is not attached to
> words, but uses
> them expediently (like signboards to a destination).
>
> In the Samannaphala Sutta, for example, the Buddha is said to have sat
> down facing
> eastwards, but in a Chinese translation (as noted by Graeme MacQueen)
> renders this
> as the Buddha sitting "facing south" (which is the way the emperor sat"),
> which strikes
> a chord with the Chinese reader.
>
> Furthermore, we see the Buddha repeatedly using brahminical and Vedic
> terminology.
> (Indeed there are very few "original" Buddhist words, but mostly recycled
> words given
> Buddhist clothing): tevijja, dhamma, arahata, nahataka, etc. This is
> almost like the modern
> Buddhist speaker (like Thich Nhat Hanh) using (or recycling) biblical
> terms which the
> christianised westerner or Singaporean could easily relate to and so act
> as a bridge to the
> Dharma.
>
> I want take some time to meditate on your suggestion and the
> re-translation of pa.tigga.nhaama,
> and so on.
>
> Anyway, if you find it somewhat distracting to communicate here, please
> feel free to communicate
> directly with me.
>
> Please bear with my ignorance and stupidity all these world-cycles.
>
> With best wishes of the present moment,
>
> Piya Tan
>
>
>
> On Jan 20, 2008 7:03 PM, jayarava < jayarava@...> wrote:
>
> > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, "Piya Tan"
> > <dharmafarer@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Dear Jayarava,
> > >
> > > You are right. The older translations tend to read a bit of
> > > Protestantism into it...
> >
> > Hi Piya,
> >
> > Thanks for your reply, I read your translation, and... oh dear, you
> > also have introduced a foreign element into the story. If confession
> > is quite simply an error, then so is "forgive". The Buddha clearly
> > does not forgive the kings revalation, but merely *accepts it*
> > (pa.tigga.nhaama). Indeed when the king is gone the Buddha tells the
> > monks he is wounded (khattaaya.m) and done for (upahataaya.m) - your
> > "uprooted and tormented" is quit interpretive, but I suppose it does
> > convey the spirit of the text and Ajaatasattu's inability to make a
> > breakthrough on hearing the Buddha's words. But in what sense does the
> > Buddha forgive Ajaatasattu? In what sense *can* the Buddha forgive him?
> >
> > > I noticed this "problem" when I was translating it some time back.
> > > However, I have used "confession" as a subtitle in a contemporary
> > > non-techical sense just to ease reading a long text that has
> > > repetitive passages.
> >
> > Yes "confession" kind of works in that place since we would understand
> > what he says as a confession? The Burmese edition emphasises the King
> > becoming an Upasaka in its subtitle. (I have the VRI CD, and the Thai
> > Buddha Jayanti on the web, but no access to the PTS)
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> --
> The Minding Centre
> Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
> Singapore 650644
> Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com
>



--
The Minding Centre
Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
Singapore 650644
Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com


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