From: Piya Tan
Message: 11963
Date: 2008-01-21
On Jan 21, 2008 10:15 AM, Piya Tan <dharmafarer@...> wrote:
> For those who are wondering what this discussion is about, here is the
> passage from
> my translation that has received some disapproval:
>
> *Ajaatasattu's confession*
>
> *101b * Venerable sir, I have committed an offence when I behaved in such
> a foolish manner, in such a confused manner, in such an unwhole�some manner,
> as to kill my father�a righteous man, a righteous rajah�for the sake of
> sove�reign rulership.
>
> Venerable sir, may the Blessed One please forgive my transgression as
> such, so that I may restrain myself in the future."
>
> *102 * "Yes, maharajah, you have transgressed in that you were so
> foolish, so ignorant, so inept as to kill your father�a righteous man, a
> righteous rajah�for the sake of sove�reign rulership.
>
> But, maharajah, because you see your transgression as such and make amends
> in accordance with the Dharma, we forgive [accept] your majesty.
>
> For, maharajah, it is a cause of growth in the Dharma and Vinaya [Doctrine
> and Discipline] of the noble ones when, seeing an offence as such, one makes
> amends in accordance with the Dharma and shows restraint in the future."
>
> *103* When this was said, the rajah Ajaatasattu Vedehi,putta of Magadha
> said to the Blessed One:
>
> "Well, then, venerable sir, we now depart. Many are our duties, much there
> is to be done."
>
> "Please, maharajah, do as you deem fit here."
>
> The rajah Ajaatasattu Vedehi,putta of Magadha, joyfully approving of the
> Bless�ed One's words, rose from his seat, bowed down to him, and, keeping
> the Buddha to his right, departed.
>
> *104 * As soon as the rajah Ajaatasattu Vedehi,putta of Magadha had
> left, *[86] *the Blessed One address��ed the monks:
>
> "The rajah is uprooted, monks; the rajah is tormented! Had he not killed
> his father�that righteous man, that righteous rajah�the dustless, stainless
> Dharma eye would have arisen to him even as he sat in this very seat."
>
> This is what the Blessed One said. The monk joyfully approved of the
> Blessed One's words. [END]
>
> Definitions of "critics":
> (1) those who talk bad about the hard work of others, but are unable to
> produce a better
> work themselves;
> (2) the pride and foolishness of others (often a cultural baggage) from
> which we can
> learn and not be what they are;
> (3) anyone who claims to follow the Buddha but only counting the tears in
> his rag-robe.
>
> Please don't take me too seriously, much less yourself. :)
>
> Piya Tan
>
>
>
>
> On Jan 21, 2008 9:56 AM, Piya Tan <dharmafarer@...> wrote:
>
> > Dear Jayarava,
> >
> > First of all I'm delighted that you have an interest in Pali Suttas.
> > Gone are the days of
> > "Theravada-bashing" I hope. Even then, I try to keep up with a
> > remarkable group of
> > Buddhists monastics and lay followers who are working at a
> > cross-linguistic approach
> > (using whatever ancient texts are available) to have a better idea what
> > the Buddha is
> > trying to tell us through all the layers of oral transmission and later
> > traditions.
> >
> > I work with the Pali texts as a "living" religion, not as a dead "book
> > religion." When I
> > translate I try to remind myself would my audience understand this, and
> > would this
> > help in their meditation (as it would my own practice).
> >
> > This is difficult that there is no common effort or some kind of global
> > committee of
> > qualified Palilogists and Buddhologists who are also practitioners who
> > can harmoniously
> > work together to produce a really acceptable and effective translation.
> >
> > I value criticisms in that it is a sign of concern that things can be
> > better.
> >
> > The translation regarding "confession" needs some rethinking, you are
> > right.
> >
> > All that we have to understand the Buddha Word is language, and we have
> > to make the
> > best of it. I'm not sure even if Pali (amongst the numerous other
> > languages used in the
> > ancient Buddhist text) exactly conveys the Buddha's message completely
> > and correctly.
> > For that reason we often hear the Buddha telling us he is not attached
> > to words, but uses
> > them expediently (like signboards to a destination).
> >
> > In the Samannaphala Sutta, for example, the Buddha is said to have sat
> > down facing
> > eastwards, but in a Chinese translation (as noted by Graeme MacQueen)
> > renders this
> > as the Buddha sitting "facing south" (which is the way the emperor
> > sat"), which strikes
> > a chord with the Chinese reader.
> >
> > Furthermore, we see the Buddha repeatedly using brahminical and Vedic
> > terminology.
> > (Indeed there are very few "original" Buddhist words, but mostly
> > recycled words given
> > Buddhist clothing): tevijja, dhamma, arahata, nahataka, etc. This is
> > almost like the modern
> > Buddhist speaker (like Thich Nhat Hanh) using (or recycling) biblical
> > terms which the
> > christianised westerner or Singaporean could easily relate to and so act
> > as a bridge to the
> > Dharma.
> >
> > I want take some time to meditate on your suggestion and the
> > re-translation of pa.tigga.nhaama,
> > and so on.
> >
> > Anyway, if you find it somewhat distracting to communicate here, please
> > feel free to communicate
> > directly with me.
> >
> > Please bear with my ignorance and stupidity all these world-cycles.
> >
> > With best wishes of the present moment,
> >
> > Piya Tan
> >
> >
> >
> > On Jan 20, 2008 7:03 PM, jayarava < jayarava@...> wrote:
> >
> > > --- In Pali@yahoogroups.com <Pali%40yahoogroups.com>, "Piya Tan"
> > > <dharmafarer@...> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Dear Jayarava,
> > > >
> > > > You are right. The older translations tend to read a bit of
> > > > Protestantism into it...
> > >
> > > Hi Piya,
> > >
> > > Thanks for your reply, I read your translation, and... oh dear, you
> > > also have introduced a foreign element into the story. If confession
> > > is quite simply an error, then so is "forgive". The Buddha clearly
> > > does not forgive the kings revalation, but merely *accepts it*
> > > (pa.tigga.nhaama). Indeed when the king is gone the Buddha tells the
> > > monks he is wounded (khattaaya.m) and done for (upahataaya.m) - your
> > > "uprooted and tormented" is quit interpretive, but I suppose it does
> > > convey the spirit of the text and Ajaatasattu's inability to make a
> > > breakthrough on hearing the Buddha's words. But in what sense does the
> > > Buddha forgive Ajaatasattu? In what sense *can* the Buddha forgive
> > > him?
> > >
> > > > I noticed this "problem" when I was translating it some time back.
> > > > However, I have used "confession" as a subtitle in a contemporary
> > > > non-techical sense just to ease reading a long text that has
> > > > repetitive passages.
> > >
> > > Yes "confession" kind of works in that place since we would understand
> > > what he says as a confession? The Burmese edition emphasises the King
> > > becoming an Upasaka in its subtitle. (I have the VRI CD, and the Thai
> > > Buddha Jayanti on the web, but no access to the PTS)
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > The Minding Centre
> > Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
> > Singapore 650644
> > Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com
> >
>
>
>
> --
> The Minding Centre
> Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
> Singapore 650644
> Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com
>
--
The Minding Centre
Blk 644 Bukit Batok Central #01-68 (2nd flr)
Singapore 650644
Website: dharmafarer.googlepages.com
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