---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: bh. santi <bh.santi@...>
Date: 07-Jan-2006 13:31
Subject: Fwd: tejodhatu -with my full name, same as last last time.
To: Pali@yahoogroups.com



---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: bh. santi <bh.santi@...>
Date: 06-Jan-2006 09:00
Subject: tejodhatu
To: Pali@yahoogroups.com

Dear Ole, Dymtro and friends,

I don't think it's terribly important, because it's probably a long way
beyond what any of us are ready to experience, but from what I've learnt
from monks in Thailand who do experience these kinds of things Ole's
statement below is mistaken:


tejo-dhaatu means "element of fire." In a human being it is responsible for
digestion as you can see from the MahaaRaahulovadasuttanta; and as I have
explained it has nothing whatsoever to do with meditation. The tejo.kasi.na
meitation is something totally different.



I don't think there is an 'absolute distinction' between the element of heat
which digests our food and the object of tejo kasina meditation, in fact I
don't think there are any 'absolute distinctions' as that would require
absolutely different self-existent sabhava-dhammas. The way I've heard it
explained by monks who have practiced tejo-kasina meditation (LP Plien) it
begins with a clearly defined disc or point of fire, but as it develops that
physical basis is not needed anymore and one learns experientially about the
interdependence of the six elements. Incidentally, when he told us about it
LP Plien advised us not to use tejo-kasina until dosa-sa.myojana has
been overcome because of this unusual anecdote from his younger years:


Once upon a time, there was a family who was hostile to him and one day
while he was on pindapata walking through the market place he became aware
of the thought of the wife of that family that she was about to deliberately
bump into him and accuse him of molesting her and make a scandal out of it.
As he percieved this thought he looked up and his tejo-kasina nimmita shot
out as he looked up with a small amount of irritation, and as the nimmita
crossed her shoulder she screamed and grabbed her shoulder, which was burnt.
LP Plien was very disturbed by this incident and went to ask a teacher who
said that he could very easily have accidentally killed her if he had looked
at her chest, and that he (the teacher) had accidentally killed a few things
when he was doing tejo-kasina, for example, one day he was sitting
meditation in his hut and there was a bird tweeting loudly just outside, for
a split second he thought of the bird with irritation and when he went
outside later he found the bird dead. After this LP Plien gave up doing
tejo-kasina meditation.


Although I'm not currently interested in trying to prove it, *I do think
that 'tejo-dhaatu-samapatti' in the case of Dabba-Mallaputta means a
meditative attainment.* It also might not occur to us without having even
met people who've reached this kind of level that the mind of an Anagami or
Arahant is very, very different from the mind of an ordinary person, all the
time, there are no mental hindrances (nivaranaa) at all, ever, although
they might be obstructed from entering an attainment by physical tiredness
or sickness. For such a person their ordinary level of mind is much more
refined than our meditation ever is, *so there's no need to mention that
'tejo-dhaatu-samapatti' is a meditative attainment for an Arahant like
Dabba-Mallaputta because their ordinary state of mind is a meditative
attainment in a way too. *
**
Also the word 'samaapatti' clearly means a meditative attainment
(samaapajitvaa is a form of this word), in fact that's how its normally
translated. It's usually explained by the commentaries as the 'eight
samaapattis' - the four rupa jhaanas and the four aruupa samaapattis based
on the fourth jhaana. And how can hovering in the air bursting into flames
and dissappearing without a trace not be associated with a meditative
attainment, it's not something that happens every day! The hovering in the
air etc. would count as a display of iddhi pa.tihaariya, or a miracle of
psycic power, which is an uttarimanussadhamma, a state surpassing humanity,
and it's associated with jhaana. It would be an offence for a monk to
display this kind of thing in front of a layperson.

Probably for a joke, the commentary says that whilst it would be unallowable
to inform a novice (samanera, samaneri) of one's factual
uttarimanussadhamma, it would be no offence to demonstrate it, such as by
hovering in mid air and emitting streams of fire and water out of each pore
of one's skin simultaneously. Most likely this was meant to wake up the
young monks dozing off at the back of the Vinaya class. (It's also no
offence to inform you about other monks super-human attainments, like the
story I told about LP Plien above.)


This message is probably out of fashion now because it's taken three
attempts to get it appoved, here is my FULL identification:

Mettaya,

Bhikkhu Santidhamma.

Santi Forest Monastery, 6 Coalmines Road (PO Box 132), Bundanoon, NSW 2578,
Australia.
Abbot: Bhante Sujata.
Tel: [66] 02 4883 6331.


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