Re: Laypeople and the Vinaya [was: Mahaasatipa.t.thaanasutta.m]

--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Bhante Sujato" <sujato@...> wrote:

> Dear Suan Lu Zaw,
>
>
> > > >
> > I read during 2003 (or 2004?) in The Canberra Times that a

Tibetan

> > lama ordained women as Bhikkhuniis, and claimed to the effect

that

> > he had revolutionized something. As if long-suffering women

denied

> > the opportunity to ordain were now liberated from the strict

heavy-

> > handed Theravada Vinaya rules!
> >
> > Guess what? This Tibetan lama is an acquaintance of mine. He is
> > married with children and goes about in lay clothes. He wears

lama

> > robes only when there are ceremonies such as during Dalai Lama's
> > visit.

===============
Venerable Sujato:

> No, i didn't, but the gentleman concerned, Lama Chodak, has

visited

> my monastery. > You omit to mention that the ordination was

carried out by a quorum

> of bhikkhus and bhikkhunis. I'm not sure what role Lama Chodak
> himself played in the ordination.
>
> If you look closely at the ordination procedure in the Pali,

you'll

> see that there is a surprising amount of leeway given as to the

role

> of the upajjhaya. For example, if the upajjhaya is a layman, or an
> animal(!), this does not invalidate the ordination, it merely
> results in a dukkata offense for those carrying out the

sanghakamma.

> So even if Lama Chodak did carry out such a role - which i don't
> know - this would not, in and of itself, invalidate the

sanghakamma.

> As long as there is a natticatutthakamma carried out in the
> appropriate manner by a quorum, the ordination is valid.
>
>=========

Dear Venerable Sujato,
Am I reading this correctlythat there was a Bhikkhuni ordination
carried out by laymen/tibetan monks and others in Canberra and that
you are saying the Nun is now a Theravada Bhikkhuni?
Robertk