--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Bhante Sujato" <sujato@...> wrote:

> But i recognize that there are also deep problems in much of the
> Theravada Sangha as well, despite the fact that, generally

speaking,

> they maintain a lifestyle more in keeping with the Vinaya.
>
> I think that an important part of learning to live together and

move

> forward is the recognition of the fundamental similarity of the
> Vinayas. This has also been said to me, happily enough, by several
> monastics of Vietnamese, Tibetan, etc traditions. Hopefully by
> emphasizing this fact we can focus our attention on those things
> that are really important.

========
Dear Venerable Sujato,
I gather from what you said here and to Thomas that you feel the
Dhammagupta(sp?) Mahayana sect is close enough to Theravada that
only ignorant conservative monks would see a distinction? That any
bhikkhuni ordained by a quorum of dhammagupta bhikkhus is thus both
a Theravada Bhikkhuni and a Dhammagupta bhikkhuni?

However, the Theravada order has always being conservative, and in
fact they considered matters of ordination and schism and all
offical acts within the sangha extremely important. Well worthy of
focusing attention on.
Take the case of the Abhayagiri sect (whose beliefs and practcices
would be much closer to Theravada than Dhammagupta: in fact
Abhayagirai even considered themselves Theravadan) :
The mahavamsa notes (p267 -268)p264 that a King helped to purify the
sasana by
suppression of a heresy. He seized bhikkhus dwelling in the
Abhayagiri.."who
had turned to the Vetulya [they followed some of the mahayana
beliefs] doctrine and were like a thorn in the
doctrine
of the Buddha and he excommunciated them."
It then notes that the thera
sanghamitta (from south India was embittered against the good
bhikkus of
the Mahavihara and bidded his time until the good king died and the
next
one jetthatissa died. Then his time was ripe when the younger
brother of
Jetthatissa (mahasena ) came to power
That the Thera sanghamitta , who dwelt at the Abhayagiri told the
king
that the Mahavihara teach a wrong doctrine and so the King made a
proclamation telling the population that they could not feed any
monk from
the Mahavihara. "The good monks thus abandoned it.""

These goood monks (or ignorant conservative monks, depending on your
outlook) underwent incredible hardship as they people were forbidden
to feed them. BUT they were steadfast in refusing to conduct acts of
sangha such as reciting the Patimokkha with the Abhayagiri.
Eventually things changed and the good monks were again allowed to
be fed.
Personally I find this example of the conservatism of the ancient
Theravada heroic and inspiring. In fact the ancient monks would
stand firm no mater how unpopular their stand was. It takes no
courage to say 'I support Bhikkhuni ordination' because at this time
woman's equality is a prevalent idea, and those who seek to preserve
the ancient ways of the Theravada are seen as ignorant conservatives.

Another case:
At the
Second Council the Vajjiputtaka reformists(i.e mahayana prototypes)
had the backing of the
householders of Vesali. When they walked into the town people would
praise
them for being so friendly and jolly, and for helping teh
townspeople. But when venerable Yasa and his fellow conservative
monks (Theravada monks)
walked
into Vesali the townsfolk called them uptight fools and threw
cowdung at them.
Yet, in my opinion, it was the conservative Theravadans who were the
heroes who refused to modify the Vinaya despite public sentiment
being firmly against them.
RobertK