Venerable Bhante Pandita, dear Yong Peng,
I go over all this again (for those who did not download yet the valuable
Relational Grammar!) and paralel to it my Visuddhimagga and Tiika example,
trying to figure this out.
Very useful this vicchaa, reduplication.
op 08-03-2005 18:42 schreef Ven. Pandita op ashinpan@...:
>
> Now for the sentence in question to be analyzed with RG.
>
>> Pa.n.ditaa ya.m ya.m desa.m bhajanti tattha tatth'eva puujitaa honti.
N: My sentence is an explanation in Visuddhimagga Tiika, Vis. XIV, 143,
about amoha.

Text Vis.:
amoho yathaasabhaavapa.tivedhalakkha.no

'Non-delusion' has the characteristic of penetrating [things] according to
their individual essences,
( I do not like 'individual essence' used by the translator and replace it
by own distinct nature.)
Tiika: Dhammaana.m yo yo sabhaavo yathaasabhaavo, tassa tassa
pa.tivijjhana.m yathaasabhaavapa.tivedho.

The Tiika explains that amoha (or paññaa) penetrates any dhamma according to
its own nature.
At the end is yathaasabhaavapa.tivedho, and it is this word of the
Visuddhimagga that is explained.

Bhante: I think I have mentioned in a previous post, but I'm not sure, that
a
> main verb, especially of conjugated form, is the uppermost node of the
> sentence tree. It means that, if there are two main verbs, there are two
> sentences. Then these would be:
>
> 1.Pa.n.ditaa ya.m ya.m desa.m bhajanti.
> 2.tattha tatth'eva puujitaa honti.
N: Evenso in my passage:
1. Dhammaana.m yo yo sabhaavo yathaasabhaavo,
2. tassa tassa pa.tivijjhana.m yathaasabhaavapa.tivedho.
Bhante: In the first sentence:
>
> pa.n.ditaa ---> bhajanti (ASV - Active Subject relation) == Wise persons
> visit

> ya.m ya.m ---> desa.m (IAD - Identical Adjective relation) == whichever
> place
Quote R.G.:
<Identical Adjective relation1 (IAD)
Here a noun in adjectival use is related to a noun it modifies. The
adjective must follow the case of the substantive but may differ in gender
and number.
mahataa purisena =...with (a/ the) great man
mahataa ---> purisena (IAD)
Nandaa naama saro = (the) lake Nandaa by name---
Nandaa ---> saro (IAD)
viisati purisaa = twenty men---
viisati ---> purisaa (IAD)>

N: my phrase: yo yo---> sabhaavo(ASV)

> desa.m ---> bhajanti (IOV - Inactive Object relation) == . . . visit the
> place
Quote RG:
A. Inactive Object Relation (IOV)
Here an object in accusative case is related to a verb in Active or
Absolute Voice.
E.g. purise hanati/hato = ... kills (the) men.
purise ---> hanati/hato (IOV)
purise ---> ha~n~nate/hata.m (Absolute voice) = (The) men are killed.
purise ---> ha~n~nate/hata.m (IOV)
purise hantabba.m (Absolute voice) = (The) men should be killed.
purise ---> hantabba.m (IOV)
> The whole would become, "Whichever place wise persons visit . . ."
>
> Note that it is a complete sentence in Pali but not in English.

N: my phrase: there is no verb, but this does not matter in Pali. We can
insert: hoti.
Moreover, I have the genitive plural: dhammaanam, which modifies yo yo
sabhaavo.
dhammaanam --->yo yo sabhaavo: a COI ??? Under genetive B.

Quote R.G.: Here, a noun expressing a collection is related to another
expressing one
or more individual elements that are to be spoken on.
raajaa manussaana.m =... (The/A) king, among/of men...
manussaana.m ---> raajaa (COI)---
N: This first sentence would become: Dhammaana.m yo yo sabhaavo
whichever distinct characteristic among the dhammas there is
Then there is another word: yathaasabhavo: this is the meaning of the
expression according to their nature. we could add: adhippeto. These Tiika
phrases are very compact, and the word at the end is explained by what
precedes.

Bhante: > In the second, the subject of the first would follow: the reason
would
> become clear when the whole sentence is finished. This is the Principle
> of Text Insertion in a different form.
>
> pa.n.ditaa ---> puujitaa (AOV - Active Object relation) == Wise persons
> are venerated
> pa.n.ditaa ---> honti (DASO (Double Active Subject (ordinary) - primary
> subject relation) == Wise persons are . . .
> puujitaa ---> honti (DASO (Double Active Subject (ordinary) - secondary
> subject relation) == . . . are venerated
Quote R.G.:
<B.1. Double Active Subject (Ordinary) relation3 [DASO]
This relation is used instead of Nominal Identity (Ordinary) Relation
(a) to express a particular tense or mood,
(b) to indicate a complete change of a certain state into another or,
(c) both.
E.g. so aacariyo abhavi / bhuuto = He was (a/the) teacher.
so ---> abhavi/bhuuto (DASO-P)4
aacariyo ---> abhavi/bhuuto (DASO-S)5
In the sentence above, so is the primary active subject and aacariyo the
secondary active subject. The verb expresses the past tense explicitly.
E.g. saamanero bhikkhu bhavati = (The) novice becomes (a) monk.
saamanero ---> bhavati (DASO-P)
bhikkhu ---> bhavati (DASO-S)
In the sentence above, the change of a certain person from novicehood
into monkhood is expressed. (Nominal Identity Relation cannot be used in
such
a sense).>

> Note: You can see this relational pattern at RG - 6. In fact, this
> sentence is complete without "honti". But the presence of a conjugated
> form helps to clearly define the tense of the verb. I mean: if it were
> past tense, we can write ". . . puujitaa ahesu.m" , thus clearly showing
> the tense.
>
> tattha tattha ---> honti (LOV - Locus - Verb relation) == --- are . . .
> in each of those places
Quote R.G.:
A. Locus - Verb Relation1 (LOV)
Here a noun expressing a point in space or time is related to a verb,
which
denotes the action that takes place there or then. Sometimes, it is related
to an
entity situated there or then.
ga"ngaaya.m nahaayati = ... bathes in the Ganges (river).
ga"ngaaya.m ---> nahaayati (LOV)
rattiya.m sayati = ... sleeps at night.
rattiya.m ---> sayati (LOV)
N: my phrase:
tassa tassa pa.tivijjhana.m yathaasabhaavapa.tivedho.
of each of these there is penetrating.
Again COI, this genetive does not denote possession.
We can insert hoti.
At the end there is the word of the Visuddhimagga that the Tiika explains:
we can insert adhippeto:yathaasabhaavapa.tivedho adhippeto. According to
their nature is the meaning.
The sentence would amount to:1. Dhammaana.m yo yo sabhaavo yathaasabhaavo,
2. tassa tassa pa.tivijjhana.m yathaasabhaavapa.tivedho.
'according to their nature refers to whichever characteristic nature there
is among the dhammas, there is penetration of each of them, and this is the
meaning of penetration according to their distinct nature.

Continue with Yong Peng's phrase:
> eva ---> ? (only an indeclinable that requires no relation)
>
> Then the sentence would amount to ". . .Wise persons are venerated in
> each of those places"
>
> When these two sentences are combined, it would become:
>
> "Whichever place wise persons visit, they are venerated at that very place"
>
> Note also that "ya.m ya.m" and "tattha tattheva" are identical in
> content, that is, they refer to the same entity. It would mean, in this
> sentence, that, if wise persons visit the place X, they would get
> honoured at X; if they visit Y, honoured at Y, etc.
****
Perhaps my example was again too complicated, but I tried.

With respect,
Nina.