Re: AN 6.10.11

Venerable Bhante Yuttadhammo,
thank you very much.
op 03-03-2005 02:19 schreef Ven. Yuttadhammo op buffer@...:

>
> Here's AN 6.10.11
>
> Comments:
>
> 1) ta.nhaa = thirst

N: It is often translated as craving, but I also have seen thirst.
Bh: 2) Again the problem with the word: "maana" (cp AN 6.8.2
Arahattasutta'm)

> which is
> commonly translated as "conceit". But here it is probably more simply
> "self-estimation",
> "conceit" being closer to atimaana, here rendered as "over-estimation".

N: Also self estimation is a kind of conceit, one clings to the importance
of self.
There are many variations of it. The Vibhanga explains under 'Small Items':
ati-maana excessive conceit. Adhimaana: overestimating conceit (not having
attained, one imagines oneself as having attained).
asmi-maana: conceit of I am.
omaana: self disrespect.
In all such ways one is flying a banner.
Also in the footnotes of the Arahattasutta, as you referred to.
Personally I prefer conceit to self-estimation, but the word self-estimation
is all right too. But the sutta refers to the arahat, and he has eradicated
all kinds of conceit. Wrong view was already eradicated by the sotaapanna.
Bh: I

> have here given
> "maana" three seperate translations: "self-estimation" to clarify what kind of
> estimation
> is referred to,

"estimation" when simply referring to the attachment to self

> (e.g. I am
> like this, I am like that),

N: Thus here the word estimation refers to conceit, not just clinging to
self without conceit.
I am like this: this can be with conceit. It takes any object. Also when
one does not compare. Somehow one flies a banner, one finds oneself
important.

Bh: and "conceit" when placed in the poetic "sammaa

> maanaabhisamayaa". This avoids describing "maana" as a kind of "maana", as
> well as
> repeating oneself, saying that abandoning "maana" is a way to penetrate
> "maana".

N: Translation is fine, I think. The sammaa belongs to the abhisamayaa, not
to conceit.
With respect,
Nina.

> --------------------------------------------
>
> A'nguttaranikaayo
>
> Chakkanipaatapaa.li
>
> 10. Aanisa'msavaggo
>
> 11. Ta.nhaasutta.m
>
> Tisso imaa, bhikkhave, ta.nhaa pahaatabbaa, tayo ca maanaa.
> These three, o Bhikkhus, thirsts should be abandoned, and these three
> self-estimations.
>
> Katamaa tisso ta.nhaa pahaatabbaa? Kaamata.nhaa, bhavata.nhaa, vibhavata.nhaa-
> imaa tisso
> ta.nhaa pahaatabbaa.
> Which three thirsts should be abandoned? Thirst for sensuality, thirst for
> becoming,
> thirst for non-becoming. These three thirsts should be abandoned.
>
> Katame tayo maanaa pahaatabbaa? Maano, omaano, atimaano- ime tayo maanaa
> pahaatabbaa.
> Which three self-estimations should be abandoned? Estimation,
> under-estimation,
> over-estimation. These three self-estimations should be abandoned.
>
> Yato kho, bhikkhave, bhikkhuno imaa tisso ta.nhaa pahiinaa honti, ime ca tayo
> maanaa;
> aya.m vuccati, bhikkhave, bhikkhu acchecchi ta.nha.m,vivattayi sa.myojana.m,
> sammaa
> maanaabhisamayaa antamakaasi dukkhassaa"ti.
> Indeed, oh bhikkhus, from whence these three thirsts are abandoned by a
> bhikkhu, along
> with these three self-estimations - o monks, one says this monk has cut off
> thirst; has
> broken the bond ; from the right penetration of conceit has made an end to
> suffering.