AN Translations

Dear Jim,

Thanks for the more info... about using the word sphere, I'm
taking into account all the commentaries and Thai MCU
explanation, where the "cause", or "hetu" as the Thai
translates it, is explained at some length, ending with the
following clause:

"dte nai tii nii maay tuung hetu kuh upanissaya heng kaan
banlu khunviset nan."

My translation here, for those who don't speak Thai:

"But herein, it refers to the root cause, which is the
upanissaya (prior supporting conditions) in regards to the
attainment of that special goodness."

So, I'm trying to keep to what I thought was a fairly
literal translation of aayatana (though I may be misled)
while still given the idea of the presence of the
prerequisite upanissaya. This is my defence/rejoinder :)

Second, in regards to this still lingering idea of sati
translated as mindfulness, there is a curious anomaly in the
Thai explanation, where it explains "sati sati aayatane" as
"mua mii hetu". The exact passage:

" 'mua mii hetu' bleh jaak paalii waa 'sati sati aayatane'
(mua mii hetu heng sati) ..."

The interesting part here is the part in parentheses. Why
did they leave the word 'sati' there if it is a relative
correlative with tatra tatreva? And why only in brackets?
Funny that.

About tatra tatreva, I suppose a more literal translation
could be sought, but the distinction part seems clear
enough: in this or any (tatreva) distinction. I thought
"here or anywhere" captured the idea without introducing a
word that isn't there, but maybe I'm missing the point...

Thank you for taking the time to help with this, it is much
appreciated.

Best wishes,

Yuttadhammo

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jim Anderson" <jimanderson_on@...>
To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Friday, July 16, 2004 11:25 PM
Subject: Re: [Pali] AN Translations


> Dear Ven. Yuttadhammo (and Nina),
>
> Thanks for the notes and the Visuddhimagga reference. I
also did some
> searching and found some commentarial explanations that
shed further
> light. For an explanation of the term "sakkhibhabbataa", I
quote the
> following from the Vibha"nga-muula.tiikaa:
>
> paccakkha.m yassa atthi, so sakkhi, sakkhino bhabbataa
> sakkhibhabbataa, sakkhibhavanataati vutta.m hoti. sakkhi
ca so bhabbo
> caati vaa sakkhibhabbo. aya~nhi iddhividhaadiina.m bhabbo,
tattha ca
> sakkhiiti sakkhibhabbo, tassa bhaavo sakkhibhabbataa, ta.m
> paapu.naati. aayataneti pubbahetaadike kaara.ne sati. --
p. 152
> (Myanmarese ed. from CSCD)
>
> This shows two ways in which the compound can be derived.
The
> anu.tiikaa comments on "sakkhibhavanataa" and
"pubbahetaadike".
>
> For a very informative explanation of "sati sati kaara.ne"
(and
> sakkhibhabbataa) see the MN a.t.thakathaa and .tiikaa near
the end of
> the Mahaavacchagottasutta (no. 73). In the
A"nguttaranikaaya sentence
> being studied, the part still needing more explanation for
me is
> "tatra tatreva" which the a.t.thakathaa explains as:
tasmi.m tasmi.m
> visese (in this and that distinction). I'm not sure what
these
> distinctions are, perhaps they are the six supernormal
abhi~n~naa-s, I
> don't know.
>
> In your:
>
> > With six, o monks, dhammas endowed, a monk is unable
here or
> > anywhere to attain realisation with his own eyes, though
it
> > be within his sphere.
>
> I think "here or anywhere . . . his sphere" still needs
more work.
> "his sphere" doesn't at all reflect 'aayatane' in the
sense of
> 'kaara.ne' (cause) according to the commentary. I notice
that in some
> of the readings in the Burmese texts for other similar
passages there
> is a hyphen: sati-aayatane. This suggests a compound with
'sati' in
> the sense of mindfulness, not with the loc. sing. of
santa. I'm
> inclined to think the hyphen doesn't belong.
>
> I can't help too much more unless I take up the study of
the
> commentarial passages I've just indicated above (and
undoubtedly this
> will lead to other ones to study as well) which I don't
have enough
> time for at present, unfortunately.
>
> Best wishes,
> Jim
>
> > Dear Jim,
> >
> > Thank you for the correction, I learned something new :)
I
> > found what you are talking about in Duroiselle's Grammar
> > sect. 603. I ran a search and found this clause "sati
sati
> > aayatane" in the Visuddhimagga (VIII,76), where
Nyanamoli
> > translates it as "whenever there is occasion." He cites
the
> > commentaries to support this. The MCU Thai version
seems to
> > be following the same with "mua mii hetu" and has some
> > interesting notes in the pa~ncakanipaata (vol ??, page
28).
> > The Vism Maha-tika says: "pubbahetu-aadi-kaara.ne sati".
> >
> > It's just a stab in the dark, but maybe this works:
> >
> > "Chahi, bhikkhave, dhammehi samannaagato bhikkhu abhabbo
> > tatra tatreva sakkhibhabbata'm paapu.nitu'm sati sati
> > aayatane.
> > /with six /o monks /dhammas /endowed /a monk /is unable
> > /there /anywhere /realisation with his own eyes/to
attain
> > /though it be /within his sphere /
> >
> > With six, o monks, dhammas endowed, a monk is unable
here or
> > anywhere to attain realisation with his own eyes, though
it
> > be within his sphere.
> >
> > The opposite:
> >
> > With six, o monks, dhammas endowed, a monk is able here
or
> > anywhere to attain realisation with his own eyes, should
it
> > be within his sphere.
> >
> > Hope that is getting closer :)
> >
> > Best wishes,
> >
> > Yuttadhammo
>
>
>
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