Nina,

�The point was not whether there is stronger vipaka for an ignorant person.�

Sorry then, it seems I misunderstood your question � What was the question
again? I am lost now.

I am not sure about �akusala is stronger when there is more ignorance�
either ignorance is present as a mental factor or it is not present. I don�t
see this �relative strength of ignorance� in the texts. Where do you find
this?

I understand your considerations about how vipaka can be produced. But I
thought we should take a sort of scientific approach and simplify the
variables otherwise it is impossible to get any answer.

Metta
Michael

>From: nina van gorkom <nilo@...>
>Reply-To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
>To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: Re: [Pali] Pali - ignorance
>Date: Mon, 03 Nov 2003 19:06:08 +0100
>
>Dear Michael,
>As you also said, the point discussed in Milinda's questions was whether
>akusala is stronger when there is more ignorance. The point was not whether
>there is stronger vipaka for an ignorant person. Kamma produces vipaka, but
>there are other conditions necessary for kamma to produce vipaka. In the
>Co.
>to the Vibhanga, the Dispeller of Delusion, ch 16, Classification of
>Knowledge, 2198 there is mentioned: destiny, gati, substratum, upadhi,
>one's
>means or conduct, payoga, kaala, time. These can be favorable, sampatti or
>unfavorable, vipatti. For example when you are born in time of war or in a
>country where there is hunger, there is more opportunity for akusala kamma
>to produce akusala vipaaka and less opportunity for kusala vipaaka. This
>subject is complex, many condiitons play their part.
>There were countless past lives and we do not know which kamma will produce
>result at which time. But so long as there is ignorance we are in the cycle
>and we have to receive vipakaa.
>Nina.
>op 02-11-2003 18:04 schreef Michael Beisert op mbeisert@...:
>
> > I still have some difficulty in accepting that one specific unwholesome
> > deed may have a stronger vipaka for an ignorant person. I like your
>quotes
> > from the Abhidhamma and using that logic the same mental factors
> > (cetasikas), influenced by the same roots, would be present in the same
> > unwholesome deed performed by the dhamma practitioner (assuming he /she
>is
> > still a putujana) and an ignorant person.
>

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