Nina, (and RobertK),

As a principle I can fully understand that ignorance leads to suffering and
further rebirth, and that the forerunner of the way to liberation is right
understanding. So within that framework the answer by Nagasena makes perfect
sense. The same applies to the passages quoted by RobertK from the
commentaries.

But I still have some difficulty in accepting that one specific unwholesome
deed may have a stronger vipaka for an ignorant person. I like your quotes
from the Abhidhamma and using that logic the same mental factors
(cetasikas), influenced by the same roots, would be present in the same
unwholesome deed performed by the dhamma practitioner (assuming he /she is
still a putujana) and an ignorant person. So, if the mental constituents are
exactly the same what would make the vipaka stronger for one and not the
other? My logic is that the feelings of guilt/remorse will explain the
different intensity of vipaka. And the dhamma practitioner will likely have
stronger feelings of guilt/remorse that the ignorant person. Over time the
story could be different because the ignorant person due to his/her
ignorance might develop that deed into a habit and this will bring far
greater harm.

Metta
Michael
orkom <nilo@...>

>Reply-To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
>To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
>Subject: Re: [Pali] Pali - ignorance
>Date: Sun, 02 Nov 2003 16:17:02 +0100
>
>Dear Michael,
>to recapitulate: from Milinda's questions: >>> The king said: "Venerable
>Nagasena, for whom is the greater demerit, one who knowingly does evil, or
>one who does evil unknowingly?>
>Nagasena's answer was one who does evil unknowingly.
>
>op 01-11-2003 17:45 schreef Michael Beisert op mbeisert@...:
> >
> > On the surface this seems like a very easy question but in fact it is
>very
> > complex. ..... the answer to your question is no, someone who has not
>heard
>the
> > Dhamma and commits an akusala deed is in a better position than someone
>who
> > knows the Dhamma....
>N: It is complex. Let us go to the roots of all akusala. There are three
>akusala hetus or roots which are the foundation of akusala citta. I do not
>know the Portuguese word for root, in French it is racine. In Pali the
>tersm
>hetu and muula are used. The three are: lobha (greed) dosa (aversion or
>hate) and moha (ignorance or delusion). Another word for moha is avijjaa.
>There are akusala cittas rooted in moha and lobha, rooted in moha and dosa
>and rooted in moha alone. But all akusala cittas have moha as their root.
>Dhammapada vs 251: <...there is no net like delusion>, and in the Ch on
>taints, vs. 243:... <and a worse taint than these is ignorance, the
>greatest
>taint.>
>We become entangled in ignorance, it is like a net.
>Ignorance is not knowing realities as they are, not knowing what is kusala,
>what is akusala, not knowing the four noble Truths. It is like blindness,
>like darkness.
>There are different intensities, degrees of the akusala hetus. When the
>degree of moha is stronger, there is a higher degree of akusala. The
>akusala hetu that arises together with the citta conditions the
>accompanying
>mental factors (cetasikas) and the citta. It motivates different degrees of
>unwholesome deeds.
>I could recommend the Wheel, no 251-253, by Ven. Nyanaponika: "the Roots of
>Good and Evil ".
>
>M: we should remember
> > that the workings of kamma can be very complex and just as a reminder
>look
> > at the Lonaphala Sutta (AN III.99).
>N: Yes, only a Buddha thoroughly penetrates the workings of kamma and
>result.
>This sutta is very complex, but does not contradict the fact that more
>ignorance conditions the akusala to be more intense. Decisive here is
>leading the holy life. The Buddha teaches here about being in the cycle and
>going out of the cycle, the commentary states.
>M: Now the question becomes really complex when you throw in the skilful
> > means� so highly praised in the Mahayana tradition. And using a skilful
> > means interpretation of a certain deed, what apparently would be an
>akusala
> > deed could be regarded as kusala. And this really opens the door for any
> > actions to be interpreted anyway you want and to atribute any kamma
> > consequences you want.
>N: Then there is more and more ignorance, as I see it. Metta is always
>kusala, violence is always akusala. Nobody in the world can change akusala
>into kusala. The three beautiful roots are: alobha, adosa and amoha or
>pa~n~naa.
>Nina.
>
>

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