Re: Pali - Every few days

Todd,

I understand your argument and to some extent agree with what you say. Your
argument works better in a single life time but would maybe not hold so well
across life times. But my understanding is that the original question was
not in terms of the level of suffering but on the degree of intensity of
kamma. Or maybe better said the potential degree of vipaka based on the same
unwholesome kamma (action/deed) by a dhamma practitioner and someone
without any knowledge of the dhamma. My reasoning was that for a dhamma
practitioner the vipaka is likely, but not necessarilly, going to be
stronger.
Metta
Michael

>From: Todd Martin <todd@...>
>Reply-To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
>To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
>Subject: Re: [Pali] Pali - Every few days - [B094]
>Date: Sat, 1 Nov 2003 10:11:34 -0800
>
>Michael,
>
>I sort of disagree. Someone who has heard the Dhamma will generally be
>living a good life. If they then commit a wrong deed they will indeed
>suffer, however they will have the tools available to end that
>suffering. Someone who has not and is, lets say for sake of argument, a
>career criminal, they live in constant suffering with no peace ever.
>Clearly they suffer more in terms of consistency and lack the tools
>needed to end that suffering, leading to further feelings of
>hopelessness. Which will usually lead to them committing more wrong
>deeds adding to their cycle of hellish existence.
>
>I do however see the point of "Who suffers more?" as irrelevant,
>suffering is suffering no matter how you shake it. All should be
>avoided. I don't think we should discriminate against those who suffer
>less.
>
>-todd
>
>On Nov 1, 2003, at 8:45 AM, Michael Beisert wrote:
>
> > Nina,
> >
> > On the surface this seems like a very easy question but in fact it is
> > very
> > complex. Maybe this is the reason there has been no replies so far? I
> > had in
> > the back of my mind that somewhere I read something about your
> > question but
> > my research ended empty and therefore I will give you my opinion on
> > it. I
> > think the answer to your question is no, someone who has not heard the
> > Dhamma and commits an akusala deed is in a better position than
> > someone who
> > knows the Dhamma, even worse if someone is a commited disciple of the
> > Buddha. My reasoning is that someone that knows that a certain deed
> > should
> > be avoided and nevertheless does it would have a stronger mental
> > imprint
> > because of that than someone who is ignorant of the Dhamma. And that
> > stronger imprint means a stronger kamma. Having said that we should
> > remember
> > that the workings of kamma can be very complex and just as a reminder
> > look
> > at the Lonaphala Sutta (AN III.99).
> >
> > Now the question becomes really complex when you throw in the �skilful
> > means� so highly praised in the Mahayana tradition. And using a skilful
> > means interpretation of a certain deed, what apparently would be an
> > akusala
> > deed could be regarded as kusala. And this really opens the door for
> > any
> > actions to be interpreted anyway you want and to atribute any kamma
> > consequences you want.
> >
> > Metta
> > Michael
> >
> >
> >
> >> From: nina van gorkom <nilo@...>
> >> Reply-To: Pali@yahoogroups.com
> >> To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
> >> Subject: Re: [Pali] Pali - Every few days - [B094]
> >> Date: Thu, 30 Oct 2003 19:15:12 +0100
> >>
> >> Dear John and friends,
> >> This is interesting. We just discussed in Dhamma Study Group this
> >> subject.
> >> Suppose you do evil without having heard the Dhamma, is this evil
> >> greater
> >> than when you know it is akusala? I frwd this post to the group.
> >> Nina.
> >> op 29-10-2003 16:27 schreef John Kelly op palistudent@...:
> >>
> >>> Pali - Every few days - [B094]
> >>> Gair/Karunatillake - Chapter 5 ? Further Readings
> >>> Ex. 3. (Part 1 of 2)
> >>>
> >>> Raajaa aaha: ?Bhante Naagasena, yo jaananto
> >>> paapakamma.m karoti, yo ajaananto paapakamma.m karoti,
> >>> kassa bahutara.m apu~n~nan?ti?
> >>> The king said: "Venerable Nagasena, for whom is the
> >>> greater demerit, one who knowingly does evil, or one
> >>> who does evil unknowingly??
> >>
> >
> > _________________________________________________________________
> > Surf and talk on the phone at the same time with broadband Internet
> > access.
> > Get high-speed for as low as $29.95/month (depending on the local
> > service
> > providers in your area). https://broadband.msn.com
> >
> >
> > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > ---------------------~-->
> > Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark
> > Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US &
> > Canada.
> > http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511
> > http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/b0VolB/TM
> > ---------------------------------------------------------------------
> > ~->
> >
> > - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
> > [Homepage] http://www.tipitaka.net
> > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com
> > Paaliga.na - a community for Pali students
> > Yahoo! Groups members can set their delivery options to daily digest
> > or web only.
> >
> > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
> > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>------------
>"I know what you're thinking about but it isn't so, nohow.
>Contrariwise, if it was so, it might be; and if it were so, it would
>be; but as it isn't, it ain't. That's logic."
>
>
>[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

_________________________________________________________________
Concerned that messages may bounce because your Hotmail account has exceeded
its 2MB storage limit? Get Hotmail Extra Storage!
http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es

Re: Pali - Every few days - [B094]