---
Dear Dimitry,
I appreciate this discussion as I know there are many
misunderstandings about this important point:
I add the relevant section from the previous post as otherwise others
won't be able to follow it.

Venerable Gunaratana wrote:
""the Visuddhimagga clearly admits this possibility when it

> r> distinguishes between the path arisen in a dry-insight mediator

and

> r> the path arisen in one who possesses a jhana but does not use it

as a

> r> basis for insight (Vism.666-67; PP.779)."""

________________
Dimitry: That's a wrong conclusion.

> Visuddhimagga 666-667 (XXI, 112) tells:
>
> "To deal with these [three theories] in order: According to the
> governance by insight, the path arisen in a bare-insight (dry-

insight)

> worker, and the path arisen in one who possesses a jhana attainment
> but who has not made the jhana the basis for insight, and the path
> made to arise by comprehending unrelated formations after using the
> first jhana as the basis for insight, are paths of the first jhana
> only."
>
> Here Ven. Buddhaghosa clearly says that all these three paths are of
> the first jhana.
> ________

Robert:I read that a little differently from yourself. The first one,
the
dry-insight worker, has not attained mundane first jhana. But it is
true that all path moments are considered to be jhana (during magga
and phala cittas) and so at the moment of experiencing nibbana the
factor of samma-samadhi is powerful.
For the dry-insight worker there is samadhi even before nibbana but
it is khanika, momentary. It is different from the development of
samathabhavana.

______
Dimitry: I don't understand your logic here. Ven. Buddhaghosa clearly
says
about first jhana.
_____
Yes. But we have to understand the context and what type of jhana he
was referring to.
The expositor PTS (translator :pe maung
tin)By Buddhaghosa gives many details about lokiya jhana and
lokuttara jhana:
P58. Triplets in the Matika
"'leading to accumulation' are those states which go about
severally arranging births and deaths in a round of of destiny
like a bricklayer who arranges bricks, layer by layer in a
wall."
"..leading to accumulation are those causes which by being
accomplished go to, or lead a man, in whom they arise, to that
round of rebirth"ENDQUOTE
It then defines these causes as "moral or immoral states". i.e
akusala AND kusala including the mundane jhanas. It is not saying
to avoid kusala or jhana , simply that these are very much part of
the causes
of samsara.

The start of the next chapter is
where it discusses the eight-fold path which leads out of samsara
The Discourse on lokuttara (transcendental).
"He cultivates the Jhana means that he evolves, produces the
ecstatic jhana of one momentary flash of consciousness. because
it goes forth from the world, from the round of rebirths, this
is jhana called going out...This is not like that which is known
as 'leading to accumulation' which heaps up and increases
rebirths by the moral(kusala) consciousness of the three
planes."

So Buddhaghosa clearly distinguishes lokiya jhana from lokuttara
jhana. Even the sukkha vipassaka , dry-insight worker attains this
type of jhana (momentarily) at the moment he experiences nibbana. And
because of its special properties, including samadhi it is considered
as being of the same strength as first (mundane) jhana.
RobertK



From the visuddhimagga tika:
http://www.abhidhamma.org/visuddhimagga-1.htm
note3 The words "insight alone" are meant to exclude, not virtue,
etc., but serenity (i.e. Jhana), which is the opposite number in the
pair, serenity and insight. This is for emphasis. But the
word "alone" actually excludes only that concentration with
distinction [of jhana]; for concentration is classed as both access
and absorption (see Ch. IV, §32). Taking this stanza as the teaching
for one whose vehicle is insight does not imply that there is no
concentration; for no insight comes about without momentary
concentration. And again, insight should be understood as the three
contemplations of impermanence, pain, and not-self; not contemplation
of impermanence alone' (Pm. 9-10).


In Pali@yahoogroups.com, "Dimitry A. Ivakhnenko (Äìèòðèé Àëåêñååâè÷
Èâàõíåíêî)" <koleso@...> wrote:

>
>
> In this passage there is no mention of jhana. It is inserted by
> translator. And even if there were mention of jhana, Visuddhimagga
> tika is much less authoritative than Suttas, Atthakattha and

Visuddhimagga

> itself.
>
> Dimitry