Dear Nina and friends,

thanks a lot.

(3) DN31 Sigalovada Sutta para.245 [PTS3.181]
Imassa cattaaro kammakilesaa pahiinaa hontii"ti

Thanks for the explanation on pahiinaa.

Thanks also for pointing out the mistake on imassa. Can I say it is
genitive - "his"? On the other hand, it may be dative - "for him".
What do you think?

For "kammakilesaa", I am not sure if it is a dvanda compound. I
refer to Practical Grammar of the Pali Language by Charles
Duroiselle. According to the book §542-543, if "kammakilesaa" is a
dvanda compound, it would mean "kammaa ca kilesaa" - actions and
defilements.

However, if it is kilesa, defilement, that motivates kamma, conduct.
Then "action due to defilement" or "action of defilement" is a
reasonable translation. Two other possible renderings I can think of
are: "unwholesome action", a common term that may refer to something
else in Pali; "act of defilement", if kamma can also refers to "act".

Under the entry "kamma" in PED (pg139), its explanation for kamma-
kilesaa is "depravity of action, bad works". To me, "bad works" does
not really reflect the original Buddhist idea, and "depravity of
action" seems to refer to a condition of 'action' rather
than 'action' alone. What do you think?

For (5) Dhammapada 63
baalo ca pa.n.ditamaanii sa ve "baalo"ti vuccati
Would this be better? - And a fool, [who is] proud of his
cleverness, he is called "fool" indeed.

metta,
Yong Peng

--- In Pali@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote:
> kammakilesa - kamma (action, deed) + kilesa (lust, impurity):
action of defilement, vice;
Nina: kammakilesaa seems to me a pure dvanda compound, let's ask
Derek. We accumulate kamma and kilesa, I cannot see a genetive
relation, although I see in the PTS tr. : four vices of conduct.
Or: four vices in conduct. In short: they are distinct. Asava,
intoxicant, is a group of defilements we accumulate. Kilesa that is
accumulated in the past conditions similar kilesa today and also it
can motivate akusala kamma today. Kamma, usually action, is
accumulated and conditions vipaaka, another type of condition.
Kilesa is often translated as defilement, but it can also be tr. as
vice. Here it could be: kilesa, defilement, that motivates kamma,
conduct.

In the next para in the verse, four motives for bad conduct are
named and they seem to be included in lobha (partiality), dosa (hate
or fear) and dullness (moha).

I checked the Co I have in Pali : <kamma-kileso ti kamma~nca ta.m
kilesa-sampayuttattaa kileso caati kamma-kileso. Sakileso yeva hi
ana.m hanati, nikkileso na hanati. Tasmaa paa.naatipaato kamma-
kileso ti vutto.

Thus, kamma is accompanied (sampayutta) by kilesa, one would not
kill without there being kilesa. That is why it is said kamma-
kileso. I had to look this up, because to me it was strange: kamma-
kileso.

Now we have: imassa: of him ? Is genitive or dative.
> pahiina - eradicated, eliminated, destroyed (pajahati p.p.);
> ???I am not sure why the word is "pahiinaa" instead of "pahiina".
Is it due to sandhi?
N: The first part of the dvanda is stem, the second one has the
declination, and pahiinaa follows the second one. Belongs to kilesaa.

> (5) Dhammapada 63
> baalo ca pa.n.ditamaanii sa ve "baalo"ti vuccati
> fool / and / proud of his cleverness / he / indeed / fool / is
called
> And a fool, [who is] proud of his cleverness, he is indeed called
a fool.
>
> pa.n.dita - (adj.) wise, clever, intelligent;
> maanin - (adj.) proud (of);
> pa.n.ditamaanin - (adj.) proud of one's own cleverness;
> ti - in this case, the word is an emphatic part [PED iti].
N: ve: indeed, truly. I had to look that up.
the ti: no, I think he is called: "fool":, thus, even one word can
be like a quote, or the contents of what we say. Thus, it is the
same as a whole sentence that is a quote, or what someone thinks or
says, followed by ti.