I think I have to apologize on my mode of addressing you, since I think you
are a bhikkhu.
I should be addressing you Venerable.
khor.khamaa.thot krap.
Sukhi.
P.
----- Original Message -----
From: "pakdi yanawaro" <prapakdi@...>
To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 6:34 PM
Subject: Re: [Pali] Re: MN 62: Mahaaraahulovaada sutta.m [7] yena tena
> yena gaamo tena upasa.mkami
> the missing words shld be filled as follows:
> yena (disabhaagena)gaamo (atthi) , tena (disabhaagena)
> (he or bhagavaa) upasa.mkami
> by whichever (dirction) the village (exists), (he)
> went by that (direction.)
> --- Piya Tan <libris@...> wrote:
> > Dear Yong Peng & friends,
> >
> > One possible idiomatic translation is:
> >
> > Then in the evening the Venerable Raahula rose from
> > his meditation retreat.
> >
> > ALTERNATE TRANSLATION,
> > Then in the evening the Venerable Raahula emerged
> > from his meditation
> > retreat.
> >
> > DISCUSSION.
> > I have a preference for simple Anglo-Saxon words
> > rather than latinized or
> > hellenized English words (like "walk" instead of
> > "ambulate"). Although the
> > alternate translation appears more accurate, I
> > prefer the simpler first
> > translation which reflects the spirit of the Pali
> > sentence more beautifully
> > and idiomatic.
> >
> > The "yena...tena" sentence is a correlative (like
> > "when...then", or
> > "either...or") and is Pali idiom, and as such can
> > only be reflected in the
> > gloss (literal translation) but has to be idiomatic
> > English for readability.
> > It is skillful to remember in translation here (in
> > our case) that we are
> > doing this for the non-expert who wants to know
> > Dharma and rather than learn
> > Pali (which is the function of the gloss, anyway).
> >
> > Sukhi.
> >
> > P.
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: <ypong001@...>
> > To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 4:31 PM
> > Subject: [Pali] Re: MN 62: Mahaaraahulovaada sutta.m
> > [7] yena tena
> >
> >
> > > Dear Ven. Kumara, Nina, John, Pakdi and Piya,
> > >
> > > thanks. I am referring to Warder's Introduction to
> > Pali 3rd Edition
> > > (PTS 1991).
> > >
> > > Piya is right. In chapter 12, under the section
> > Relative
> > > Indeclinables (p73):
> > > yena gaamo tena upasa.mkami
> > > he approached the village
> > >
> > > The word upasa.mkami is in 3rd person, aorist,
> > singular (chpt. 4,
> > > p24).
> > >
> > > As for the phrase, I have got the order wrong as I
> > was thinking in
> > > English grammatically. It should be broken up as
> > such:
> > >
> > > Atha kho aayasmaa Raahulo saayanhasamaya.m
> > > then / venerable *(respectful appellation) /
> > Rahula / at evening time
> > > (PED sayanha)
> > > Then, at evening time, the venerable Rahula
> > >
> > > pa.tisallaanaa vu.t.thito
> > > retirement for the purpose of meditation, solitude
> > / risen, got up
> > > got up from solitude
> > >
> > > yena Bhagavaa tenupasa'nkami
> > > who / the Blessed One / who approached
> > > [and] approached the Blessed One.
> > > tenupasa'nkami = tena + upasa'nkami
> > > tena - who
> > > upasa'nkami - go up to, approach (upasankamati)
> > >
> > > Please correct me if there is any mistake.
> > >
> > >
> > > metta,
> > > Yong Peng.
> > >
> > > --- Piya Tan wrote:
> > > > Dear Pali friends,
> > > >
> > > > It's good we are having a clearer idea of the
> > literal translation
> > > of the
> > > > phrase. However, "upasa.nkami" is not "'I'
> > approached" but "'he'
> > > > approached".
> > > >
> > > > "I approached" = upasa.nkami.m (see Warder
> > 1974:24).
> > > >
> > > > Idiomatic tr:
> > > > "He approached the village."
> > > >
> > > > Note:
> > > > Keep the literal translation "literal", that is,
> > translate the word
> > > as it
> > > > is. For example, "viharati" = "he stays".
> > > > In the "idiomatic" translation, this is usually
> > translated into the
> > > past
> > > > tense or past continuous (in the sutta opening):
> > > > "(While the Buddha) was staying at...." or "(the
> > Buddha) stayed
> > > at...".
> > > >
> > > > In this sense canonical Pali does not place high
> > priority on
> > > grammar but on
> > > > teaching.
> > > >
> > > > Sukhi.
> > > >
> > > > P.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > > From: "pakdi yanawaro" <prapakdi@...>
> > > > To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 11:35 AM
> > > > Subject: Re: [Pali] Re: MN 62: Mahaaraahulovaada
> > sutta.m [7] yena
> > > tena
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > > yena gaamo tena upasa.mkami shld be yena
> > > > > (disabhaagena) gaamo (aasi), tena
> > (disabhaagena) (so)
> > > > > upasa.mkami = by whichever direction the
> > village
> > > > > existed, he went by that direction. ---
> > Kumaara
> > > > > Bhikkhu <venkumara@...> wrote:
> > > > > > To be as literal as possible and still sound
> > > > > > English, maybe we can say:
> > > > > > I approached where the village was.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > kb
> > > > > >
> > > > > > At 03:35 AM 23-01-03, John Kelly wrote:
> > > > > > >Yena gaamo tena upasa.mkami.
> > > > > > >This can be translated simply as "I
> > approached the
> > > > > > >village".
> > > > > > >Perhaps, a rough way to see how this is
> > literally
> > > > > > >derived would be something like "To which
> > village,
> > > > > > to
> > > > > > >that I approached."
> > >
> > >
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