Re: MN 62: Mahaaraahulovaada sutta.m [7] yena tena

Dear Yong Peng & friends,

One possible idiomatic translation is:

Then in the evening the Venerable Raahula rose from his meditation retreat.

ALTERNATE TRANSLATION,
Then in the evening the Venerable Raahula emerged from his meditation
retreat.

DISCUSSION.
I have a preference for simple Anglo-Saxon words rather than latinized or
hellenized English words (like "walk" instead of "ambulate"). Although the
alternate translation appears more accurate, I prefer the simpler first
translation which reflects the spirit of the Pali sentence more beautifully
and idiomatic.

The "yena...tena" sentence is a correlative (like "when...then", or
"either...or") and is Pali idiom, and as such can only be reflected in the
gloss (literal translation) but has to be idiomatic English for readability.
It is skillful to remember in translation here (in our case) that we are
doing this for the non-expert who wants to know Dharma and rather than learn
Pali (which is the function of the gloss, anyway).

Sukhi.

P.

----- Original Message -----
From: <ypong001@...>
To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 26, 2003 4:31 PM
Subject: [Pali] Re: MN 62: Mahaaraahulovaada sutta.m [7] yena tena


> Dear Ven. Kumara, Nina, John, Pakdi and Piya,
>
> thanks. I am referring to Warder's Introduction to Pali 3rd Edition
> (PTS 1991).
>
> Piya is right. In chapter 12, under the section Relative
> Indeclinables (p73):
> yena gaamo tena upasa.mkami
> he approached the village
>
> The word upasa.mkami is in 3rd person, aorist, singular (chpt. 4,
> p24).
>
> As for the phrase, I have got the order wrong as I was thinking in
> English grammatically. It should be broken up as such:
>
> Atha kho aayasmaa Raahulo saayanhasamaya.m
> then / venerable *(respectful appellation) / Rahula / at evening time
> (PED sayanha)
> Then, at evening time, the venerable Rahula
>
> pa.tisallaanaa vu.t.thito
> retirement for the purpose of meditation, solitude / risen, got up
> got up from solitude
>
> yena Bhagavaa tenupasa'nkami
> who / the Blessed One / who approached
> [and] approached the Blessed One.
> tenupasa'nkami = tena + upasa'nkami
> tena - who
> upasa'nkami - go up to, approach (upasankamati)
>
> Please correct me if there is any mistake.
>
>
> metta,
> Yong Peng.
>
> --- Piya Tan wrote:
> > Dear Pali friends,
> >
> > It's good we are having a clearer idea of the literal translation
> of the
> > phrase. However, "upasa.nkami" is not "'I' approached" but "'he'
> > approached".
> >
> > "I approached" = upasa.nkami.m (see Warder 1974:24).
> >
> > Idiomatic tr:
> > "He approached the village."
> >
> > Note:
> > Keep the literal translation "literal", that is, translate the word
> as it
> > is. For example, "viharati" = "he stays".
> > In the "idiomatic" translation, this is usually translated into the
> past
> > tense or past continuous (in the sutta opening):
> > "(While the Buddha) was staying at...." or "(the Buddha) stayed
> at...".
> >
> > In this sense canonical Pali does not place high priority on
> grammar but on
> > teaching.
> >
> > Sukhi.
> >
> > P.
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: "pakdi yanawaro" <prapakdi@...>
> > To: <Pali@yahoogroups.com>
> > Sent: Saturday, January 25, 2003 11:35 AM
> > Subject: Re: [Pali] Re: MN 62: Mahaaraahulovaada sutta.m [7] yena
> tena
> >
> >
> > > yena gaamo tena upasa.mkami shld be yena
> > > (disabhaagena) gaamo (aasi), tena (disabhaagena) (so)
> > > upasa.mkami = by whichever direction the village
> > > existed, he went by that direction. --- Kumaara
> > > Bhikkhu <venkumara@...> wrote:
> > > > To be as literal as possible and still sound
> > > > English, maybe we can say:
> > > > I approached where the village was.
> > > >
> > > > kb
> > > >
> > > > At 03:35 AM 23-01-03, John Kelly wrote:
> > > > >Yena gaamo tena upasa.mkami.
> > > > >This can be translated simply as "I approached the
> > > > >village".
> > > > >Perhaps, a rough way to see how this is literally
> > > > >derived would be something like "To which village,
> > > > to
> > > > >that I approached."
>
>
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