Re: [DhammaStudyGroup] SN: puzzling suttas about monks lying

(from dhammastudygroup@ list)

Hi Mike,

--- "m. nease" <mlnease@...> wrote:

> Sorry I can't provide the specific lies mentioned in
> this sutta, but monks performing various kinds of
> wrong speech and many other shenanigans seems to
> have
> been fairly commonplace in the Buddha's time (as in
> the present time), and often for exactly the reasons

you cited from the commentary.


It's not that monks of the past, present, and future
commit wrong speech and performed other shenanigans
that puzzled me. Naturally when the order of monks and
nuns grows to a large number, they can't all be
Sariputtas and Mogallanas. Sooner or later Curly,
Larry, and Moe get ordained, and then you get a long
list of rules in vinaya.

What really caught my attention was that the sutta
said that the monks who were so virtuous that they
would not tell a lie to save their mother's life! They
commited some kind of lie for the sake of reputation
and honor. To resolve these two dissonant statements,
I have to conclude that the virtuous monk must be
doing some very subtle kind of lying, because they
obviously wouldn't tell a blatant lie. That's why I'm
so interested to find out exactly what the lie is.

-fk

--- frank kuan <fcckuan@...> wrote:

> There's a section of suttas (repetitive with minor
> variations) in Samyutta that goes something like
> this:
>
> Buddha: With my ability to emcompass the minds of
> others with my own mind (i.e. mind reading), I
> noticed
> that one of you virtuous monks in this assembly who
> would not tell a deliberate lie for a silver bowl
> filled with gold, or tell a lie to save the life of
> your own mother, has told a lie for the sake of
> reputation, fame, and honor.
>
> -=======================
> Does anyone know SPECIFICS? Like exactly what the
> lie
> is? From the commentary notes, it looks like the
> motivation would be to have fame among lay
> supporters
> so they could be invited more often and for better
> quality of food, robes, offered.
>
>

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