Re: Odhroerir pronounciation

In the glossary to his edition of Skáldskaparmál, Anthony Faulkes
lists it as "Óðre(y)rir ... perhaps for Óðrørir or Óð(h)rœrir." He
writes that the most usual spelling in the manuscripts is Óðrerir,
"occuring only once with y" (Óðreyrir). He continues, "in Hávamál
107, Óðrerir apparently refers to the contents of the pot, which
accords better with the etymology, though in Hávamál 140 it refers to
the pot." Here are the verses with Thorpe's translation, as presented
here [
http://www.normanniireiks.org/guilds_lore/lore/poetic/havamal.htm ]:

107...því at Óðrerir for Oðrærir.
er nú upp kominn is now come up
á alda vé jarðar. to men's earthly dwellings.

Last line appears variously as: á alda vés iarðar; til alda vés
jarðar; á alda vés iarðar; á alda vé jaðars. If these verses are
based on the same story of the theft of the mead that Snorri tells,
then I guess the most obvious way of understanding Óðrerir would as a
name for the mead here rather than the container. And the mention of
men might imply that the reference is to the mead of poetry, as a
metaphor for poetry itself -- unless of course the cauldron could be
used metaphorically too...

140...ok ek drykk of gat and a draught obtained
ins dýra mjaðar of the precious mead,
ausinn Óðreri. drawn from Oðrærir.

Do these lines definitely suggest that Óðrerir is the vessel? Rudolf
Simek in his "Dictionary of Northern Mythology," translated by Angela
Hall, interprets the name as "approximately: 'the one that stimulates
to ecstasy'" -- i.e. the mead of poetry. According to Simek, Snorri's
interpretation as the cauldron in which the dwarfs caught Kvasir's
blood was based on "an obscure passage in Hávamál 140, but Hávamál 107
and a number of kennings in skaldic poetry prove quite clearly that
Óðrœrir originally meant the name of the mead itself. [...] The name
Óðrœrir is nicely appropriate to the mead so that an improved reading
in Óhrœrir, rejuvenating potion, is unnecessary."

Presumably the first element of this alternative suggestion is the
same in origin as Old Norse ung- "young", except with the fricative
unvoiced due to root-stress in Pre-Germanic, Pgm. /u:nx/ > Proto-Norse
/u:h/ (with nasalised vowel) > ON ó-. The 'h' in this hypothetical
alternate version would remain, since it wouldn't be deleted as part
of a cluster according to the rule Konrad mentioned. But since this
form is (as far as I know) unattested and the attested forms actually
make more sense in terms of the myth, at least as we know it, Simek
has a point about it being unnessarary!

Regarding the various spellings, could a third factor be at work here
-- besides those you mentioned, Konrad -- namely weakened stress in
the root of the second part of the compound, especially as with the
loss of the 'h' the original meaning might have become less obvious
(at least in Iceland where the 'h' was preserved before initial 'r';
in other parts of Scandinavia, including Norway it was lost). Since
the symbol 'œ' often used normalised authography stands for long 'ø',
could reduced stress have led to a shortening of the vowel? Short 'ø'
in all positions would sometimes undergo a change to 'e' (e.g. kømr >
kemr). Or perhaps shortening due to reduced stress occured a bit
later, after 'œ' (=long 'ø') had merged with 'æ' (=long open 'e').
But given the irregularities in the way scribes represented these
sounds, maybe this idea isn't necessary to explain the forms that appear.

Now, responding to the Pronunciation Challenge (and bearing in mind
that I don't really have any special knowledge of these matters beyond
what you can read in the basic textbooks), Óðhrœrir would have the
main stress on the first syllable and a secondary stress on the next,
similar to an English compound such as "mind-stirrer." The vowel of
the first syllable 'Óð' would probably have been as Eysteinn explained
for Modern Icelandic (like English 'oath') except without the
off-glide [u] at the end, i.e. just a long close-mid back vowel [o:],
like German 'Boot', or the vowel of 'oath' in some varieties of
northern British English. 'œ' (long 'ø') is usually thought to have
been pronounced like the umlauted vowel in German 'Böse'. But some
time (starting in the mid 13th century according to Stefán Karlsson)
this vowel lost its lip-rounding in Icelandic and merged with 'æ'
(long open 'e'), like the vowel in English 'rare'. Later still (I'm
not sure when), this sound developed into the diphthong Eysteinn
describes which is its value in Modern Icelandic.

I think there's an image on at least one of the runestones which might
be interpreted as three stylised horns plaited together (type "triple
horn" and "odin" into Google Images). Which stone is that?

Llama Nom




--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "akoddsson" <konrad_oddsson@...>
wrote:

>
> Heill Victor.
>
> Eysteinn is right about the word in question. It is a rare word, and
> extant manuscripts do not seem to agree on how it should be written.
> It is a compound of two parts, the first part (óð- < *wôd-) likely
> related to inspiration (needed to compose poetry), and the second
> related to ON hroera/hrøra (<*hrôzian), MIce hræra, a weak verb
> meaning to stir. The -ir suffix(*-jaz)in hroerir/hrørir is an agent-
> suffix, so the likely meaning is 'inspiration/poetry-stirir'. The
> -er in ME words like 'stirer' is also an agent-suffix, having the
> same origin in Germanic, which hopefully helps to explain what it
> tends to imply in ON. The name Óðinn is likely related to the óð- in
> this rare word, and it is thought, but not known for certain, that
> it was originally a u-stem (Early Runic N. *wôduz A. *wôdu D. *wôdiu
> G. *wôdôz), but the extant instances and cases of ON óðr give
> conflicting evidence about its original declension. The Early Runic
> personal name Wôdurîdaz is attested in runic from about 400AD (its
> ON form would be Óðríðr), which would seem to support the idea that
> ON óðr was originally a u-stem. From the verb *hrôzian are derived,
> besides ON hroera/hrøra, Old English hrêran, Old Saxon hrôrian, Old
> High German hruoren, New High German ruhren (ulmauted u), all with
> the same range of meanings. Likely also related, by ablaut, is the
> Early Runic nom.sg.masc. a-stem hrazaz, a personal name or nickname.
> So how should this word be written in ON? It depends on the era of
> the language chosen, and the major issue here is the -h-. Take a
> look at the exhaustive list of options given below by Eysteinn. The
> variants with -ey- are likely due to either a) spelling variations
> for the sound long ø (also written oe) or b) mutation variations of
> original ô before z (*hrôzian) (z/R caused a variety of mutations in
> ON when it turned into r in West Norse, which can sometimes be seen
> in alternate forms of words with original z/R, for example: ýr/ór
> 'out of', ørlög, Erlandr (personal name), orrosta/orrusta/orresta
> 'battle', etc.etc.. The most conservative form, however, would be ON
> hroerir/hrørir (accent the ø = oe), because it shows only i-mutation
> of a preceeding ó by a following -i/j-. Given that this form occurs,
> I would stick with it. Lastly, the major issue: -h-. Gulp. By about
> 1200AD, this -h- would be gone due to simplification of consonant
> clusters of three or more consonants, by which rule the middle one
> has to go (Þórfríðr attested 1000AD in West Norse runes > Þórríðr
> Attested about 1120AD in a copy of Ari Fróði > MIce usually Þuríðr).
> However, the oldest manuscripts (like the 2 Homily Books, etc.), _do
> not show simplification of consonant clusters at all in compounds_,
> and show much less of it in non-compounds as well - but the complex
> rules on these non-compounds are irrelevant here, as this word is a
> compound. Thus, about 1200AD and later: óðroerir/óðrø'ir, but about
> 1100AD and earlier: óðhroerir/óðhrø'rir - because the simplification
> of consonant clusters of three or more consecutive consonants in
> compound words is thought to have begun during the 12th century,
> middle-later half. Hope this helps ;)
>
> Regards,
> Konrad
>
> --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Eysteinn Bjornsson"
> <eysteinn@> wrote:
> >
> > --- Victor Hansen wrote:
> > >
> > > I believe that the word Odhroerir is the old Norse for the
> symbol of the triple horn of Odin (is it referred to by any other
> names and how would those be pronounced?). Someone correct me if I
> am off track with this word but I'd be very interested to know the
> proper pronounciation of it (or as close as possible), if someone
> could give me a bit of help on this.
> > .
> > .
> > .
> >
> > We don't even know what the correct form ought to be, so we don't
> know for certain what the word means. The pronunciation
> would vary depending on which form you would prefer. Some forms
> possible are:
> >
> > Óðrerir
> > Óðreyrir
> > Óðrørir
> > Óðroerir
> > Óðhroerir
> >
> > In Skáldskaparmál, it is the name of one of three cauldrons
> > in which the dwarfs Fjalarr and Galarr caught the blood of Kvasir.
> > However, as used in Hávamál, Ó. appears to be the name of the
> > actual liquid therein, i.e. the poetic mead itself. I have never
> > heard of "the triple horn of Óðinn" and doubt it is mentioned
> > anywhere in Icelandic sources. A dubious school of mythological
> > interpretation even equates Ó. with Mímisbrunnur (Mímir's well).
> >
> > Others here (llamanom, this is you) are better at "authentic"
> > Old Norse pronounciation or approximations thereof ... I'm just
> > a modern Icelander, and know little of such learned matters ...
> >
> > In modern Icelandic the pronounciation would be approximately:
> >
> > Óð - as "oath", but with the "th" of "father", not that of "thing".
> > Hræ - say "rye" and then add an "h" in front = "hrye".
> > Rir - "rir" with "i" as in bin.
> >
> > And of course all three r's need to be trilled in the Icelandic
> > manner.
> >
> > I guess the Icelanders of, say, the 11th century, would have
> > pronounced quite similarly, except that the value of "hræ"
> > would have been closer to "hruh", rather than "hrye".
> >
> > But as they always say, you really have to hear it in order
> > to know how to do it.
> >
> > Not much help, I'm afraid.
> >
> > Eysteinn
> >
>