Hi All,

This wound up in the wrong mailbox, but is clearly intended for the
list. Hopefully it will come through legible - forwarding this way may
lose characters not found in the US character set.

----- Forwarded message from xigung <xigung@...> -----

From: xigung <xigung@...>
To: norse_course-owner@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: Hrafnkell 633-654 / Alan??s translation

Hi Alan,

You certainly did a huge job, translating all this stuff.
Thank you for keeping the thread going!

-- "AThompson" wrote:
>
> Comments welcome on any point but particularly on the underlined
passages:
>
> b??zk: (line 635) Is this 3rd pers sg of bj????ask?

I do not see the ?? there, and I think it is from b??a.
Remember that -sk changed to -st in modern Icelandic.
See below.

> ??urfu: (line 640) Why is this 3rd person plural when ???hvers??? is
singular?
> vant er vi?? v??ndum at sj??: (lines 643-4)
> illt: (line 652) Is this behaving as an adverb or noun? ie ???much has
arisen badly from him??? or ???much badness has arisen from him????
>
> Kve??ja
> Alan
>
> S??mr setti b?? ?? A??alb??li eptir Hrafnkel, ok s????an efnir hann
> S??m established a farm at A??alb??l after Hrafnkel, and afterwards puts on

I think "setja b??" actually means "to move into".
The farm was still there, and now that Hrafnkell was gone, S??mr
moved in with his family, his staff, his servants and his
furniture. He "established himself" is a good translation.
Setja bu = ?? skaffe seg ein heim. Han bosatte seg i Amerika =
he went to live in America. So he did not establish the farm,
but he established himself *at* the farm.

> veizlu vir??uliga ok b????r til ??llum ??eim, sem verit h??f??u
> a magnificent feast and invites to (it) all those, who had been
>
> 635 ??ingmenn hans. S??mr b??zk til at vera yfirma??r ??eira ?? sta??
> his (ie Hrafnkel???s) followers at the Thing. S??m offers himself to be
their chieftain in place

Zo??ga says: To prepare for war = "b??ast til ??fr????ar".
In older language it was -sk, because the reflexive
ending derives from the personal pronoun "sik".
"b??a sig til fer??ar" = getting ready, preparing oneself
to go on a journey.

b??a, b??ast.
frams??guh??ttur n??t???? 3.pers. et.:
hann b??st (=indicative present, 3rd person singular).


I agree that the reflexive verb forms are difficult in some cases.
The same form is used both reflexively, as well as reciprocally,
and also in passive as well as in active instances.
An example of the passive use is "skip b??ask" - the ships
equip themselves, or better: the ships are equipped.

Well, I think your "belkir" are a bit long, since it
would be impossible to comment everything within a
framework of reasonable length - though I wouldn't mind,
if time permitted. (I participate because I hope to learn this way)

Best regards

Xigung.


>
> Hrafnkels, Menn j??tu??usk undir ??at ok hug??u ???? enn misjafnt
> of Hrafnkel. (The) men agreed to that and (but) thought still
nevertheless with uncertainty (ie had misgivings, mixed feelings)
>
> til.
> about (that).
>
> ??j??starssynir r????u honum ??at, at hann skyldi vera bl????r ok
> Thj??star??s sons advised him that, that he should be gracious and
>
> g????r fj??rins ok gagnsamr s??num m??nnum, styrktarma??r hvers,
> good (generous) of property and helpful to his men, a benefactor of each
>
> 640 sem hans ??urfu vi??. '???? eru ??eir eigi menn, ef ??eir fylgja ????r
> who (whoever) has need of him. ???Then they are not men, if they
support you
>
> eigi vel, hvers sem ???? ??arft vi??. En ??v?? r????um vit ????r ??etta, at
> not well, each who (whoever) you have need of. But (in) that
(matter), we advise you this, that
>
> vit vildim, at ????r t?"kisk allt vel, ??v?? at ???? vir??isk okkr vaskr
> we would want, that everything turns out well for you, because you
seem to us (two) a brave
>
> ma??r. G??ttu n?? vel til, ok vertu varr um ??ik, af ??v?? at vant er
> man. Take (you) good care now, and be (you) aware (of things) about
you, because (it) is difficult
>
> vi?? v??ndum at sj??.'
> against evil to see (be on guard).
>
> 645 ??j??starssynir l??tu senda eptir Freyfaxa ok li??i hans ok
> Thj??star???s sons caused to send after Freyfaxi and his herd and
>
> kv????usk vilja sj?? gripi ??essa, er sv?? gengu miklar s??gur af. ????
> declared themselves to want to see these valuable animals, about
which many stories thus went (ie were current). Then
>
> v??ru hrossin heim le??dd. ??eir br?"??r l??ta ?? hrossin.
> the mares were led home. Those brothers look at the mares.
>
> ??orgeirr m??lti: '??essi hross l??task m??r ????rf b??inu. Er ??at
> Thorgeir spoke. ???These mares look to me necessary for the farm. That is
>
> mitt r????, at ??au vinni sl??kt, er ??au megu, til gagnsmuna,
> my advice, that they work such, as they are able, at useful things,
>
> 650 ??angat til er ??au megu eigi lifa fyrir aldrs s??kum. En hestr
> until when the are not able to live for reasons of old age. But this
stallion
>
> ??essi s??nisk m??r eigi betri en a??rir hestar, heldr ??v?? verri, at
> seems to me not better than other stallions, rather worse (for) that
(matter), so that
>
> margt illt hefir af honum hlotizk. Vil ek eigi, at fleiri v??g
> much ill has arisen from him. I do not want, that more slayings
>
> hlj??tisk af honum en ????r hafa af honum or??it. Mun ??at n??
> arise from him than have already happened from him. That will now (be)
>
> makligt, at s?? taki vi?? honum, er hann ??.'
> fitting, that that one (he) take (receipt) of him, who owns him.???
>
> Grammar notes:
>
> S??mr S??mr: (n) nom
sg S??m
> setti setja: (v)
3s past ind established
> b?? b??: (n)
acc sg farm
> ??
at
> A??alb??li A??alb??l: (n) dat
sg A??alb??l
> eptir
after
> Hrafnkel, Hrafnkell: (n) acc
sg Hrafnkel
> ok
and
> s????an
afterwards
> efnir efna: (v)
3s pres ind performs
> hann hann: (pron) nom
sg he
> veizlu veizla: (n)
acc sg feast
> vir??uliga vir??uligr: (adj)
acc sg magnificent
> ok
and
> b????r bj????a:
3s pres ind invites
> til
to (it)
> ??llum allr: (pron)
dat pl all
> ??eim, s??: (pron)
dat pl those,
> sem
who
> verit vera: (v)
pp been
> h??f??u hafa: (v)
3p past ind had
> 635

> ??ingmenn ??ingma??r: (n) nom pl
followers at the Thing
> hans. hann: (pron) gen
sg his.
> S??mr S??mr: (n) nom
sg S??m
> b??zk bj????ask: (v refl) 3s
pres ind offers himself
> til
to (this)
> at
to
> vera vera: (v)
inf be
> yfirma??r yfirma??r: (n) nom
sg chieftain
> ??eira s??: (pron)
gen pl their
> ??
in
> sta?? sta??r: (n)
acc sg place
> Hrafnkels, Hrafnkell: (n) gen
sg (of) Hrafnkel.
> Menn ma??r: (n)
nom pl Men
> j??tu??usk j??task: (v refl) 3p
past ind committed themselves
> undir
to
> ??at ??at: (pron)
acc sg that
> ok
and
> hug??u hyggja: (v) 3p
past ind thought
> ????
still
> enn
further
> misjafnt
with misgivings
> til.
about (it)
> ??j??starssynir ??j??starsonr: (n) gen pl
Thj??star??s sons
> r????u r????a: (v)
3p past ind advised
> honum hann: (pron) dat
sg him
> ??at, ??at: (pron)
acc sg that,
> at
that
> hann hann: (pron) nom
sg he
> skyldi skulu: (v)
3s past subj should
> vera vera: (v)
inf be
> bl????r bl????r: (adj)
nom sg gracious
> ok
and
> g????r g????r: (adj)
nom sg good
> fj??rins f??: (n)
gen sg of wealth
> ok
and
> gagnsamr gagnsamr: (adj) nom sg
helpful
> s??num sinn: (pron) dat
pl (to) his
> m??nnum, ma??r: (n) dat
pl men,
> styrktarma??r styrktarma??r: (n) nom sg
benefactor
> hvers, hverr: (pron)
gen sg of each,
> 640

> sem
who
> hans hann: (pron) gen
sg him
> ??urfu ??urfa: (v)
3p pres ind ? has need
> vi??.
of.
> '????
'Then
> eru vera: (v)
3p pres ind are
> ??eir s??: (pron)
nom pl they
> eigi
not
> menn, ma??r: (n)
nom pl men,
> ef
if
> ??eir s??: (pron)
nom pl they
> fylgja fylgja: (v)
3p pres ind support
> ????r ????: (pron)
dat sg you
> eigi
not
> vel,
well,
> hvers hverr: (pron)
gen sg each
> sem
who
> ???? ????: (pron)
nom sg you
> ??arft ??urfa: (v)
2s pres ind have need
> vi??.
of.
> En
But
> ??v?? ??at: (pron)
dat sg (for) that (reason)
> r????um r????a: (v)
1p pres ind advise
> vit vit: (pron)
nom pl we (two)
> ????r ????: (pron)
dat sg you
> ??etta, ??etta: (pron)
acc sg this,
> at
that
> vit vit: (pron)
nom sg we (two)
> vildim, vilja: (v)
1p past subj (would) want,
> at
that
> ????r ????: (pron)
dat sg (to) you
> t?"kisk takask: (v refl) 2s
pres subj happens
> allt allr: (pron)
acc sg everything
> vel,
well,
> ??v?? at
because
> ???? ????: (pron)
nom sg you
> vir??isk vir??ask (v refl)
2s pres subj seem
> okkr vit: (pron)
dat pl (to) us
> vaskr vaskr: (adj)
nom sg brave
> ma??r. ma??r: (n)
nom sg man.
> G??ttu g??ta: (v) 2s
imper Take care you
> n??
now
> vel
good
> til,
to,
> ok
and
> vertu vera: (v), ????: (pron) 2s
imper be you
> varr varr: (adj)
nom sg aware
> um
about
> ??ik, ??inn: (pron)
acc sg yourself,
> af ??v?? at
because
> vant vandr: (adj) ?
nom sg difficult?
> er vera: (v)
is
> vi??
with
> v??ndum v??ndr: (n) ? dat
pl evil ?
> at
to
> sj??.' sj??: (v)
inf see.'
> 645

> ??j??starssynir ??j??starssonr: (n) nom sg
Thj??star??s sons
> l??tu l??ta: (v)
3p past ind caused
> senda senda: (v)
inf to send
> eptir
after
> Freyfaxa Freyfaxi: (n) dat
sg Freyfaxi
> ok
and
> li??i li??: (n)
dat sg herd
> hans hann: (pron) gen
sg his
> ok
and
> kv????usk kve??ask: (v refl) 3p
past ind declared themselves
> vilja vilja: (v)
inf (to) want
> sj?? sja: (v)
inf (to) see
> gripi gripr: (n)
acc pl animals
> ??essa, sj??, ??essi: (pron) acc
pl these,
> er
which
> sv??
thus
> gengu ganga: (v) 3p
past ind went
> miklar mikill: (adj)
nom pl great
> s??gur saga: (n)
nom pl stories
> af.
about.
> ????
Then
> v??ru vera: (v)
3p past ind were
> hrossin hross: (n)
nom pl the mares
> heim
home
> le??dd. lei??a: (v)
pp lead.
> ??eir s??: (pron)
nom pl Those
> br?"??r br????ir: (n)
nom pl brothers
> l??ta l??ta: (v)
3p pres ind look
> ??
at
> hrossin. hross: (n)
acc pl the mares.
> ??orgeirr ??orgeirr: (n)
nom sg Thorgeir
> m??lti: m??la: (v) 3s
past ind spoke:
> '??essi ??etta: (pron)
nom pl 'These
> hross hross: (n)
nom pl mares
> l??task l??task: (v refl)
3p pres ind look
> m??r ek: (pron)
dat sg (to) me
> ????rf ??arfr: (adj)
nom pl necessary
> b??inu. b??: (n)
dat sg (on) the farm.
> Er vera: (v)
3s pres ind Is
> ??at ??at: (pron)
nom sg that
> mitt minn: (pron)
acc sg my
> r????, r????: (n)
acc sg advice,
> at
that
> ??au ??au: (pron)
nom sg they
> vinni vinna: (v)
3p pres ind work
> sl??kt, sl??kr: (pron)
acc sg such,
> er
as
> ??au ??au: (pron)
nom pl they
> megu, mega: (v) 3p
pres ind can,
> til
to
> gagnsmuna, gagnsmunir: (n pl) gen pl
useful things,
> 650

> ??angat
there
> til
to
> er
when
> ??au ??au: (pron)
nom pl they
> megu mega: (v) 3p
pres ind can
> eigi
not
> lifa lifa: (v)
inf live
> fyrir
for
> aldrs aldr: (n)
gen sg (of) old age
> s??kum. s??k: (n)
dat pl reasons.
> En
But
> hestr hestr: (n)
nom sg stallion
> ??essi sj??, ??essi: (pron) nom
sg this
> s??nisk s??nask: (v) 3s
pres ind seems
> m??r ek: (pron)
dat sg (to) me
> eigi
not
> betri betri: (adj compar)
indecl better
> en
than
> a??rir annarr: (pron)
nom pl other
> hestar, hestr: (n)
nom pl stallions,
> heldr
rather
> ??v?? ??at: (pron)
dat sg (in) that
> verri, verri: (adj compar)
indecl worse,
> at
so that
> margt margr: (pron) nom
sg much
> illt illr: (adj)
nom sg ill
> hefir hafa: (v)
3s pres ind has
> af
from
> honum hann: (pron) dat
sg him
> hlotizk. hlj??task: (v refl)
pp been caused.
> Vil vilja: (v)
1s pres ind Want
> ek ek: (pron)
nom sg I
> eigi,
not,
> at
that
> fleiri fleiri (adj compar)
indecl more
> v??g v??g: (n)
nom pl killings
> hlj??tisk hlj??task: (v refl)
3p pres subj be caused
> af
by
> honum hann: (pron) dat
sg him
> en
than
> ????r
already
> hafa hafa: (v)
3p pres ind have
> af
by
> honum hann: (pron) dat
sg him
> or??it. ver??a: (v)
pp happened.
> Mun munu: (v) 3s
pres ind will (be)
> ??at ??at: (pron)
nom sg that
> n??
now
> makligt, makligr: (adj) nom
sg fitting,
> at
that
> s?? s??: (pron)
nom sg that one / he
> taki taka: (v)
3s pres subj take (receipt)
> vi??
of
> honum, hann: (pron) dat
sg him,
> er
who
> hann hann: (pron) acc
sg him
> ??.' eiga: (v)
3s pres ind. owns.'
>
>
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----- End forwarded message -----

--
Arlie

(Arlie Stephens arlie@...)