Re: indicative for subjunctive: blessings & curses

Hi Llama,

> Grímr kveðst fyrr hafa fundit
> hvalinn. "Veiztu eigi," sagði Hreiðarr, "at ek á hér
> reka alla?" "Eigi veit ek þat," sagði Grímr, "en hversu
> sem er, þá höfum at helmingi." "Eigi vil ek þat,"
> sagði Hreiðarr.
>
> G. said that he'd found the whale first. "Don't you know," said
> H., "that I own everything that is washed ashore here?" "I don't
> know that," said G., "but be that as it may (?), we'll [still] have
> half." "I don't agree to that," said H.
>
> (Literally "how as is". But I guess Grim isn't casting any doubt on
> what Hreidar has said, only that he won't surrender the whale to
> him.)

Yeah, I think you've got that one covered.
I'd translate something like this:

Eigi veit ek þat en hversu sem er...
I don't know about that but however that may be...

>> Þorsteinn veit ekki hvað verður af honum.
>> Þorsteinn vissi ekki hvað varð af honum.
>> Þorsteinn vissi ekki hvað yrði af honum.
>
>
> Are these the three meanings?
>
> 1. (As above.)
> 2. Th. didn't know what had happened to him.
> 3. Th. didn't know what could have happened to him.

Hmm... I don't think so. See below.

> Could 1. theoretically also mean things like "doesn't know what
> HAPPENS to him", or "is happening", or even "will happen"? Or how
> would these be expressed?

I think that's exactly what it means.
Proceeding with modern forms:

Þorsteinn veit ekki hvað verður af honum.
- Þ. doesn't know what becomes of him
(or 'will become of him').

Þorsteinn vissi ekki hvað varð af honum.
- Þ. didn't know what became of him.

Þorsteinn vissi ekki hvað yrði af honum.
- Þ. didn't know what would become of him.

And for some forms with auxiliary verbs:

Þorsteinn vissi ekki hvað orðið hafði af honum.
- Þ. didn't know what had become of him.

Þorsteinn vissi ekki hvað orðið hefði af honum.
- Þ. didn't know what would have become of him.

Þorsteinn vissi ekki hvað orðið var af honum.
- Þ. didn't know what had become of him.

Þorsteinn vissi ekki hvað orðið væri af honum.
- Þ. didn't know what had become of him.

The last two do not have the exact same meaning
but I'm not sure how to convey the difference in English.
The second version seems to me to imply more uncertainty.
The first one may imply that whereas Þ. doesn't know
what has become of the fellow WE KNOW - or something
like that.

I still haven't done much syntax/semantics (or wherever
one thinks about stuff like this) at the University so
I'm not on solid ground here.

>> I'm not sure what you're thinking of.
>> I'm reminded of the 'formáli' (rite?
>> blessing? spell?) from the folklore:
>>
>> Komi þeir sem koma vilja,
>> veri þeir sem vera vilja,
>> fari þeir sem fara vilja,
>
>
> Thanks for the spell! I'll try and remember that next time the
> elves are round, or invisible unicorns... "Charm" is a fairly
> general word for anything like an object or rhyme supposed to be
> protection against the supernatural. Maybe that's what it is. In
> Gríms saga there's a subjunctive wish like this, but more malicious,
> as it comes from a wicked stepmother.

> The 2nd person singular forms
> are the same as indicative, of course:

For some verbs, like 'byggja'.

> Læt ek þat verða um mælt, at þú verðir at inni ljótustu tröllkonu ok
> hverfir norðr til Gandvíkr ok byggir þar afhelli ok sitir þar í
> stóðrenni við Hrímni, bróður minn, ok eigizt þit við bæði margt ok
> illt, ok hafi þat verr, sem verr herðir sik.
>
> This do I solemnly say, that you turn into the most ugly troll-woman
> and go north to Gandvik (the White Sea) and live there in a side-
> cave next door to my brother Hrimnir, and you will argue both much
> and hard, and...
>
> I'm a bit puzzled by the last line. herða sik "harden oneself,
> steel oneself, take heart". She seems to be saying, "may it go
> worst for whoever steels themselves the most." But this doesn't
> make a great deal of sense to me yet.

This is puzzling to me too. I wouldn't think 'verr'
should be rendered as 'most'; it may mean the reverse.

Here's a subjunctive for you:

Hjálpi æsir
ok ásynjur,
gervöll regin,
gyðju sinni.

Kveðja,
Haukur