llama nom, you write with a droll humor that I find easy to
really appreciate, now to the imagination of the Author (?) well he must
have been good at it, unless since we speak of "spread-eagled" when we
say someone is flat with arms outstretched, there seems to be some connection,
anyway, surgery is done with Scalpel not Sabre. - Ivarr the
What??
Subject: [norse_course] Re: "með landi"
along the coast? + "the eagle" (a grisly síðan)
I don't know if Ivar the Boneless's chief
blood-eagler would take kindly to his profession described as
"unskilled" surgery--but yeah, easier to get them out than put them back
in and working, I guess... The other theory that some people
prefer is that some medieval author found the phrase in an old poem and
didn't understand it, and so imagined what it might mean. "The
Eagle, what's that you ask. Hmm, let's see..." But this is a
notorious controversy. In fact, it's probably only a matter of
time before scholars resurrect the practice in an attempt to convince
their rivals of its impossibility...
Llama Nom
---
In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Patricia"
<originalpatricia@...> wrote: > The Blood Eagle
is I'm sure the actual pulling out of the lungs (oh please) but it
stands to reason (my reasoning) that in order to reach the lungs
from the back you have to attempt unskilled surgery and get the ribs out
the darned way. and for this reason, and perhaps for "Effect" the Author
chose to relate the whole grisly operation, I suggest simply saying
"They Blood Eagle'd Ella would have conveyed enough to most people, but
the Author chose to dip his quill pen into the ink a couple more times
so us weaker mortals were to be left in no doubt, what so
ever > Bless >
Patricia > ----- Original Message -----
> From: llama_nom
> To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 8:11
AM > Subject: [norse_course] "með landi" along
the coast? + "the eagle" (a grisly síðan) > > >
> > Thanks Sarah! >
> That's great. It may have been a
misunderstanding, but I for one > have
learnt plenty from puzzling about it. Interesting your
> lecturer's comment about the two words for
"coast" depending on > which side you're
on: með sævi/landi. > > Uh oh, here's a
curious & gruesome example of síðan from the tale of
> Ragnar's Sons (look away now!): >
> Létu þeir nú rista örn á baki Ellu ok skera
síðan rifin öll frá > hrygginum með
sverði, svá at þar váru lungun út dregin. >
> Now they had the "eagle" cut in Ella's back
and then had all the > ribs severed from
his spine with a sword, so that his lungs were
> pulled out there. >
> I don't know what the experts make of this,
but I always thought the > blood-eagle
*was* the pulling out of the lungs. But this suggests
> it referred to some preliminary marking or
flaying action. Hmmm... > >
Llama Nom > > > >
> --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Sarah
Bowen" <sarahbowen@...> >
wrote: > > Hi
there! > > >
> Finally I can get back to you about "með landi" and
"síðan". > >
> > Firstly, apologies. I got the
wrong end of the stick about "með >
landi". Here is the explanation my lecturer
gives: > > >
> you wanted to know about Hann ferr nú síðan suðr með landi in
> Audunar thattr. Literally, as you know,
thie means 'He goes now > afterwards
south with land', i.e. he follows the coast south. If
> Audun were on land (we know he's not), the
phrase would still work > gramatically,
but would it make any useful sense? The 'land' goes in
> all directions, and wouldn't be a feature
that he would naturally > follow. He
might follow a headland, for example (með nesi), or some
> other geographical feature: he might well
follow the sea(- coast) > (með sævi). I
can't see how fara með landi could work if he were
> travelling by land, and I certainly don't
recall seeing it > anywhere. The phrase
we have in Audun is not uncommon and always
> occurs (as far as I know) during
descriptions of sea-voyages. > >
> > And here is what he says about
"síðan" > >
> > I've never seen "síðan" used
spatially, and I'm quite confident in >
stating that it's a purely > > temporal
adverb, used to link sequences of events one after
> another. 'Afterwards' is an
> > adequate and indeed normal gloss for
it, although we'd most > commonly render it
with > > 'then'. 'Subsequently' is a bit
flowery, but might also do. > Something that
establishes a > > temporal sequence,
anyway. 'Nu' (accent on the u!) is here part of
> the style - immediacy
> > of the colloquial present tense -
rather than actually > contributing to the
ordering of the > > narrative's
events. > >
> > Hope this
helps. > >
Cheers, > >
Sarah. > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> ----- Original Message -----
> > From: llama_nom
> > To:
norse_course@yahoogroups.com >
> Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 8:25
AM > > Subject: [norse_course]
Re: Auðun - 6/ feedback Patricia: "með >
landi" along the coast? > >
> > > >
> > >
> --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Sarah Bowen"
> <sarahbowen@...>
> >
wrote: > > > Great!
Many thanks for this. I shall discuss this with him
> and >
> let you know! Sometimes I reckon I learn more from
being in > this
> > group than attending
lectures - oooops, did I really say that
:-) > > >
> > > Hi
Sarah, > > >
> Careful though, I could well be getting confused...
But if you > get
> > a chance, could you also
query síðan = "further"? I can't find
> that >
> meaning in Zoega, only "afterwards", "since", etc.
The nearest > I
> > can find in Cleasby &
Vigsusson is: lengi síðan "for a long time
> > after". But I can't
see any spatial meanings. Gwyn Jones just
> > has "He now proceeded
south along the coast". > >
> > If you have access to
"Sweet's Anglo-Saxon Reader" Revised >
> throughout by Dorothy Whitlock, there's an interesting
note in > there
> > pp. 229-230, on Ohthere's
use of "eastweard" when he seem to > mean
> > south: "this agrees with
Old Norse usage: the south coast of >
Norway > > from Lindesnes to
Oslo Fjord was known as _austr í Vík_, and
> > voyagers travelling there,
even from the north, speak of going >
> east." (Though judging by Auðun they could add
"south" as well.) > >
> > Apparently _í Vík austr_
can also be used just to mean position, >
> without movement: > >
> > Haraldr hét einn hersir
ríkr ok ágætr í Vík austr > >
(Gríms saga loðinkinna) > >
> > ...which I suppose is a
bit like _vestur þar í fjörðum_ in the >
very > > first line of
Auðun. > > >
> Llama Nom > >
> > > >
> > --- In
norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Sarah Bowen" >
<sarahbowen@...> > >
wrote: > > > Great!
Many thanks for this. I shall discuss this with him
> and >
> let you know! Sometimes I reckon I learn more from
being in > this
> > group than attending
lectures - oooops, did I really say that
:-) > > >
> > >
Kveðja, > > >
Sarah. > > >
----- Original Message ----- >
> > From: llama_nom
> > > To:
norse_course@yahoogroups.com >
> > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 5:20
AM > > >
Subject: [norse_course] Re: Auðun - 6/ feedback
> Patricia: "með
> > landi" along the
coast? > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Like
you, I thought "með landi" meant following the coast
> but >
> > apparently here it is "by land" or "over
land". If someone > can
> > give
> > > me a
convincing argument that this is incorrect, please do
> and >
> I´ll > >
> discuss it with my lecturer
:-) > > >
> > >
> > > Hi
Sarah, > > >
> > > Do you
(or your lecturer!) have any examples of it >
meaning "by > >
> land"? I just typed the phrase into Google, and found
> plenty of >
> > quotes where it seems to be "[by sea]
along the coast". > Here's
> > one
> > > with the
verb _fara_: > > >
> > > En er
Haraldr konungr varð þessa tíðinda víss, þá dró hann
> her >
> saman > >
> ok skaut skipum á vatn; bjósk síðan með lið mikit ok
ferr > með
> > landi
> > > suðr...
(Haralds saga ins Hárfagra, 36) >
> > > >
> Harald is on his way to fight a sea battle. I suppose
it > > doesn't
> > > actually
state that he is on board, but I found plenty more
> with >
> > _sigla_ and other nautical verbs &
contexts. Cleasy & > Vigfusson
> > > have
"sail along the shore" for: sigla með landi. Also Gwyn
> > Jones
> > > has
"south along the coast" at this point in his translation
> > > of "Audun
and the Bear". And by sea might be a more
> sensible >
> way to > >
> travel in medieval Norway... But I wonder if "með
landi" > could
> > >
theoretically also mean "[by land] along the coast", in the
> > right
> > >
context? Or could it describle position with no
> > motion: "situated
> > > along the
coast" (e.g. a cliff, or hills)? At Joshua 13,3,
> the >
> > Icelandic Bible uses the phrase of a
river, running along > the
> > border
> > > of a
country: frá Síhór, sem rennur fram með Egyptalandi að
> > >
austanverðu, til landamæra Ekron í norðri - það telst með
> landi >
> >
Kanaaníta... > > >
> > > Llama
Nom > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > A Norse
funny farm, overrun by smart people. >
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