Re: "með landi" along the coast? + "the eagle" (a grisly síðan)

I don't know if Ivar the Boneless's chief blood-eagler would take
kindly to his profession described as "unskilled" surgery--but yeah,
easier to get them out than put them back in and working, I
guess... The other theory that some people prefer is that some
medieval author found the phrase in an old poem and didn't
understand it, and so imagined what it might mean. "The Eagle,
what's that you ask. Hmm, let's see..." But this is a notorious
controversy. In fact, it's probably only a matter of time before
scholars resurrect the practice in an attempt to convince their
rivals of its impossibility...

Llama Nom

--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Patricia"
<originalpatricia@...> wrote:

> The Blood Eagle is I'm sure the actual pulling out of the lungs

(oh please) but it stands to reason (my reasoning) that in order to
reach the lungs from the back you have to attempt unskilled surgery
and get the ribs out the darned way. and for this reason, and
perhaps for "Effect" the Author chose to relate the whole grisly
operation, I suggest simply saying "They Blood Eagle'd Ella would
have conveyed enough to most people, but the Author chose to dip his
quill pen into the ink a couple more times so us weaker mortals were
to be left in no doubt, what so ever

> Bless
> Patricia
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: llama_nom
> To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, January 14, 2005 8:11 AM
> Subject: [norse_course] "með landi" along the coast? + "the

eagle" (a grisly síðan)

>
>
>
>
> Thanks Sarah!
>
> That's great. It may have been a misunderstanding, but I for

one

> have learnt plenty from puzzling about it. Interesting your
> lecturer's comment about the two words for "coast" depending

> which side you're on: með sævi/landi.
>
> Uh oh, here's a curious & gruesome example of síðan from the

tale of

> Ragnar's Sons (look away now!):
>
> Létu þeir nú rista örn á baki Ellu ok skera síðan rifin öll

frá

> hrygginum með sverði, svá at þar váru lungun út dregin.
>
> Now they had the "eagle" cut in Ella's back and then had all

the

> ribs severed from his spine with a sword, so that his lungs

were

> pulled out there.
>
> I don't know what the experts make of this, but I always

thought the

> blood-eagle *was* the pulling out of the lungs. But this

suggests

> it referred to some preliminary marking or flaying action.

Hmmm...

>
> Llama Nom
>
>
>
>
> --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Sarah Bowen"

<sarahbowen@...>

> wrote:
> > Hi there!
> >
> > Finally I can get back to you about "með landi" and "síðan".
> >
> > Firstly, apologies. I got the wrong end of the stick

about "með

> landi". Here is the explanation my lecturer gives:
> >
> > you wanted to know about Hann ferr nú síðan suðr með landi

> Audunar thattr. Literally, as you know, thie means 'He goes

now

> afterwards south with land', i.e. he follows the coast south.

> Audun were on land (we know he's not), the phrase would still

work

> gramatically, but would it make any useful sense? The 'land'

goes in

> all directions, and wouldn't be a feature that he would

naturally

> follow. He might follow a headland, for example (með nesi), or

some

> other geographical feature: he might well follow the sea(-

coast)

> (með sævi). I can't see how fara með landi could work if he

were

> travelling by land, and I certainly don't recall seeing it
> anywhere. The phrase we have in Audun is not uncommon and

always

> occurs (as far as I know) during descriptions of sea-voyages.
> >
> > And here is what he says about "síðan"
> >
> > I've never seen "síðan" used spatially, and I'm quite

confident in

> stating that it's a purely
> > temporal adverb, used to link sequences of events one after
> another. 'Afterwards' is an
> > adequate and indeed normal gloss for it, although we'd most
> commonly render it with
> > 'then'. 'Subsequently' is a bit flowery, but might also do.
> Something that establishes a
> > temporal sequence, anyway. 'Nu' (accent on the u!) is here

part of

> the style - immediacy
> > of the colloquial present tense - rather than actually
> contributing to the ordering of the
> > narrative's events.
> >
> > Hope this helps.
> > Cheers,
> > Sarah.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: llama_nom
> > To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, December 08, 2004 8:25 AM
> > Subject: [norse_course] Re: Auðun - 6/ feedback

Patricia: "með

> landi" along the coast?
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Sarah Bowen"
> <sarahbowen@...>
> > wrote:
> > > Great! Many thanks for this. I shall discuss this with

him

> and
> > let you know! Sometimes I reckon I learn more from being

> this
> > group than attending lectures - oooops, did I really say

that :-)

> >
> >
> > Hi Sarah,
> >
> > Careful though, I could well be getting confused... But

if you

> get
> > a chance, could you also query síðan = "further"? I can't

find

> that
> > meaning in Zoega, only "afterwards", "since", etc. The

nearest

> I
> > can find in Cleasby & Vigsusson is: lengi síðan "for a

long time

> > after". But I can't see any spatial meanings. Gwyn Jones

just

> > has "He now proceeded south along the coast".
> >
> > If you have access to "Sweet's Anglo-Saxon Reader" Revised
> > throughout by Dorothy Whitlock, there's an interesting

note in

> there
> > pp. 229-230, on Ohthere's use of "eastweard" when he seem

> mean
> > south: "this agrees with Old Norse usage: the south coast

> Norway
> > from Lindesnes to Oslo Fjord was known as _austr í Vík_,

and

> > voyagers travelling there, even from the north, speak of

going

> > east." (Though judging by Auðun they could add "south" as

well.)

> >
> > Apparently _í Vík austr_ can also be used just to mean

position,

> > without movement:
> >
> > Haraldr hét einn hersir ríkr ok ágætr í Vík austr
> > (Gríms saga loðinkinna)
> >
> > ...which I suppose is a bit like _vestur þar í fjörðum_ in

the

> very
> > first line of Auðun.
> >
> > Llama Nom
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Sarah Bowen"
> <sarahbowen@...>
> > wrote:
> > > Great! Many thanks for this. I shall discuss this with

him

> and
> > let you know! Sometimes I reckon I learn more from being

> this
> > group than attending lectures - oooops, did I really say

that :-)

> > >
> > > Kveðja,
> > > Sarah.
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: llama_nom
> > > To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Tuesday, December 07, 2004 5:20 AM
> > > Subject: [norse_course] Re: Auðun - 6/ feedback
> Patricia: "með
> > landi" along the coast?
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > > Like you, I thought "með landi" meant following the

coast

> but
> > > apparently here it is "by land" or "over land". If

someone

> can
> > give
> > > me a convincing argument that this is incorrect,

please do

> and
> > I´ll
> > > discuss it with my lecturer :-)
> > >
> > >
> > > Hi Sarah,
> > >
> > > Do you (or your lecturer!) have any examples of it
> meaning "by
> > > land"? I just typed the phrase into Google, and found
> plenty of
> > > quotes where it seems to be "[by sea] along the

coast".

> Here's
> > one
> > > with the verb _fara_:
> > >
> > > En er Haraldr konungr varð þessa tíðinda víss, þá dró

hann

> her
> > saman
> > > ok skaut skipum á vatn; bjósk síðan með lið mikit ok

ferr

> með
> > landi
> > > suðr... (Haralds saga ins Hárfagra, 36)
> > >
> > > Harald is on his way to fight a sea battle. I suppose

> > doesn't
> > > actually state that he is on board, but I found plenty

> with
> > > _sigla_ and other nautical verbs & contexts. Cleasy &
> Vigfusson
> > > have "sail along the shore" for: sigla með landi.

Also Gwyn

> > Jones
> > > has "south along the coast" at this point in his

translation

> > > of "Audun and the Bear". And by sea might be a more
> sensible
> > way to
> > > travel in medieval Norway... But I wonder if "með

landi"

> could
> > > theoretically also mean "[by land] along the coast",

in the

> > right
> > > context? Or could it describle position with no
> > motion: "situated
> > > along the coast" (e.g. a cliff, or hills)? At Joshua

13,3,

> the
> > > Icelandic Bible uses the phrase of a river, running

along

> the
> > border
> > > of a country: frá Síhór, sem rennur fram með

Egyptalandi að

> > > austanverðu, til landamæra Ekron í norðri - það telst

með

> landi
> > > Kanaaníta...
> > >
> > > Llama Nom
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
> > >
> > > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
> > >
> > > To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-

mail to:

> > >
> > > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > > ADVERTISEMENT
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ---------------------------------------------------------

------

> ----
> > -----------
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/norse_course/
> > >
> > > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> > >
> > > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the

Yahoo!

> Terms
> > of Service.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
> >
> > Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
> >
> > To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail

to:

> >
> > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
> > ADVERTISEMENT
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -------------------------------------------------------------

------

> -----------
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> > a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/norse_course/
> >
> > b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> > norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
> >
> > c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo!

Terms

> of Service.
> >
> >
> >
> > No virus found in this outgoing message.
> > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus.
> > Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.6.10 - Release Date:
> 10/01/2005
>
>
>
>
>
> A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
>
> Homepage: http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
>
> To escape from this funny farm try rattling off an e-mail to:
>
> norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------------------------------

---------

> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> a.. To visit your group on the web, go to:
> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/norse_course/
>
> b.. To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
> norse_course-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
>
> c.. Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms

of Service.