Subject: Re: [norse_course] indicative
for subjunctive: blessings & curses
Hi Llama,
> Grímr kveðst fyrr hafa
fundit > hvalinn. "Veiztu eigi," sagði Hreiðarr, "at ek á hér >
reka alla?" "Eigi veit ek þat," sagði Grímr, "en hversu > sem er, þá
höfum at helmingi." "Eigi vil ek þat," > sagði
Hreiðarr. > > G. said that he'd found the whale first. "Don't
you know," said > H., "that I own everything that is washed ashore
here?" "I don't > know that," said G., "but be that as it may (?),
we'll [still] have > half." "I don't agree to that," said
H. > > (Literally "how as is". But I guess Grim isn't
casting any doubt on > what Hreidar has said, only that he won't
surrender the whale to > him.)
Yeah, I think you've got that
one covered. I'd translate something like this:
Eigi veit ek þat
en hversu sem er... I don't know about that but however that may
be...
>> Þorsteinn veit ekki hvað verður af
honum. >> Þorsteinn vissi ekki hvað varð af honum. >>
Þorsteinn vissi ekki hvað yrði af honum. > > > Are these
the three meanings? > > 1. (As above.) > 2. Th. didn't
know what had happened to him. > 3. Th. didn't know what could have
happened to him.
Hmm... I don't think so. See below.
>
Could 1. theoretically also mean things like "doesn't know what >
HAPPENS to him", or "is happening", or even "will happen"? Or
how > would these be expressed?
I think that's exactly what it
means. Proceeding with modern forms:
Þorsteinn veit ekki hvað
verður af honum. - Þ. doesn't know what becomes of him (or 'will
become of him').
Þorsteinn vissi ekki hvað varð af honum. - Þ.
didn't know what became of him.
Þorsteinn vissi ekki hvað yrði af
honum. - Þ. didn't know what would become of him.
And for some
forms with auxiliary verbs:
Þorsteinn vissi ekki hvað orðið hafði af
honum. - Þ. didn't know what had become of him.
Þorsteinn vissi
ekki hvað orðið hefði af honum. - Þ. didn't know what would have become
of him.
Þorsteinn vissi ekki hvað orðið var af honum. - Þ. didn't
know what had become of him.
Þorsteinn vissi ekki hvað orðið væri af
honum. - Þ. didn't know what had become of him.
The last two do
not have the exact same meaning but I'm not sure how to convey the
difference in English. The second version seems to me to imply more
uncertainty. The first one may imply that whereas Þ. doesn't know what
has become of the fellow WE KNOW - or something like that.
I still
haven't done much syntax/semantics (or wherever one thinks about stuff
like this) at the University so I'm not on solid ground
here.
>> I'm not sure what you're thinking of. >>
I'm reminded of the 'formáli' (rite? >> blessing? spell?) from the
folklore: >> >> Komi þeir sem koma vilja, >> veri
þeir sem vera vilja, >> fari þeir sem fara
vilja, > > > Thanks for the spell! I'll try and
remember that next time the > elves are round, or invisible
unicorns... "Charm" is a fairly > general word for anything like
an object or rhyme supposed to be > protection against the
supernatural. Maybe that's what it is. In > Gríms saga
there's a subjunctive wish like this, but more malicious, > as it
comes from a wicked stepmother.
> The 2nd person singular
forms > are the same as indicative, of course:
For some verbs,
like 'byggja'.
> Læt ek þat verða um mælt, at þú verðir at
inni ljótustu tröllkonu ok > hverfir norðr til Gandvíkr ok byggir þar
afhelli ok sitir þar í > stóðrenni við Hrímni, bróður minn, ok eigizt
þit við bæði margt ok > illt, ok hafi þat verr, sem verr herðir
sik. > > This do I solemnly say, that you turn into the most
ugly troll-woman > and go north to Gandvik (the White Sea) and live
there in a side- > cave next door to my brother Hrimnir, and you will
argue both much > and hard, and... > > I'm a bit puzzled
by the last line. herða sik "harden oneself, > steel oneself,
take heart". She seems to be saying, "may it go > worst for
whoever steels themselves the most." But this doesn't > make a
great deal of sense to me yet.
This is puzzling to me too. I wouldn't
think 'verr' should be rendered as 'most'; it may mean the
reverse.
Here's a subjunctive for you:
Hjálpi æsir ok
ásynjur, gervöll regin, gyðju
sinni.