Hi Sjuler,
You provide some excellent examples of the exact thing
I had in mind. I am not so fluent in Swedish that I can
simply say "that's what they say in Sweden". It is because
Norwegian and Swedish are too close, so that it becomes
especially hard to keep them apart in all details.
(That is probably why so many journalist are picking up
so many "sveisims" these days. Half the time they may
not even realize it.)

In Norway it is usually "unna". That is because the
"d" has disappeared -- time has rubbed it away.
The n-final is also gone.

--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "sjuler" <sjuler@...> wrote:
> Hi Xigung,
>
> "But it doesn't necessarily mean "to run away" although in dangerous
> situation a certain quickness of motion would also be implied. But an
> escape from .e.g. a prison would, I think, also be a "komazk undan".
>
>
> In Modern Swedish, 'komma undan' means "get away from (something/-
> one)". E.g. "Jag kom undan med några skråmor", meaning "I got away
> with [only] a few scratches". Similar construction using 'undan' are
> possible:
>
> 'draga sig undan' - move out of the way,
> 'hålla sig undan' - keep away,
> 'lägga undan' - put aside,
> 'gånga undan' - go quickly,
> 'undan för undan' - bit by bit,
> etc
You can say most of these in Norway too:
Dra deg unna! Hold deg unna!
Ligg unna! (= don't interfere with me/clear the road)
Det gikk unna som bare det! etc..

Come to think of it, Danish also has constructions
of the type "undrage", "undgaa"
which again reminds me of the corresponding German words
entgehen, entfliehen, etc. (= to avoid and to escape)

Best, Xigung




>
> The Swedish definition of the adverb 'undan' is "i riktning bort från
> någon", translated "in direction away from something/-one".
>
> I wonder if Old Norse has expressions like
>
> *draga sik undan.
> *halda sik undan,
> *leggja undan,
> *ganga undan,
> *undan fyr undan,
>
> with the same meanings as in the Swedish examples.
>
> Regards,
> /Sjurd
>
>
>
> --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "xigung" <xigung@...> wrote:
> > Hi Alan,
> > That was funny!
> > In my browser your message looked really strange! [at first]
> > (the new char for the "euro" monetary unit appeared
> > several times) and I couldn't understand anything
> > of what you had written with ON chars.
> >
> >
> > But then I went up to the browser's "View" menu,
> > and chose "Character Coding" > "Auto Detect" > "Universal".
> > I also had to choose from the "Character Coding" submenu
> > the option "Unicode(UTF-8)", which is at the very bottom.
> > When I did that, as if miraculously, the text cleared up,
> > and I could read it as straight-forward Old Norse".
> > I think, with your system, you might also be able
> > to go outside the old 255-char iso-scheme. Have you tried?
> >
> > Best
> > Xigung
> >
> > P.S. With respect to the phrase "ganga undan", I have a
> > feeling that it simply means "to go away". The reason
> > is that directional information or instructions are often
> > indicated by means of adverbs ending with the syllable -an.
> > An example from the Edda is Vsp. 4: "Sól skein sunnann á salar
> > steinar." (the Sun shone from the South onto the [ground's] stones)
> > You can say that in this example the ending -an has the meaning
> > of "from", i.e. is a directional indicator.
> >
> > "Below" in the sense of being situated on a lower level
> > [than something else] is described by the preposition/adverb
> > "undir". "Undan" does not solely refer to a strictly
> > vertical line of positioning/motion, but can just as often be
> > a reference to a motion "away from" something/someone.
> >
> > But it doesn't necessarily mean "to run away" although
> > in dangerous situation a certain quickness of motion
> > would also be implied. But an escape from .e.g. a prison
> > would, I think, also be a "komazk undan".
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, "Alan Thompson" <athompso@...>
> > wrote:
> > > Hi Sarah
> > >
> > > Even though both versions make sense, the more I think about I’m
> > still not convinced your interpretation is incorrect.
> > >
> > > The interpretation: “And those (horses) which never were
> accustomed
> > to run away from a man, now (unexpectedly) were (man)-shy” hinges
> on
> > “ganga undan” being translated as “run away” which is
> consistent wi=
> > th
> > Zoega’s definition “to escape, to absent oneself”
> > >
> > > The interpretation: “And those (horses) which never were
> accustomed
> > to be ridden by a man, now (predictably) were man-shy” hinges on
> > “ganga undan” , literally “to walk from beneath” being
> interpreted =
> > as
> > “to be ridden by” which to me, on face value, could be
> construed; but
> > I guess one would have to know if there were other examples from the
> > literature of it being used in this sense.
> > >
> > > Note also: gramatically, manni is dat sg of maðr, not pl.
> > >
> > > Question: Why is it skjõrr and not skjõr, in the neuter nom pl
> form?
> > >
> > > Alysseann
> > >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: Sarah Bowen [mailto:bowensli@...]
> > > Sent: Tuesday, 18 November 2003 12:33 AM
> > > To: norse_course@yahoogroups.com
> > > Subject: Re: [norse_course] Hrafnkel 101-125 / Laurel's
> > >
> > > Hi Laurel!
> > >
> > > I find it so helpful to do these translations as a group because
> you
> > get the benefit of another person´s perspective. I understood
> > >
> > > ok váru þau nú skjõrr, er aldri váru võn at ganga undan
> manni,
> > > and - were - these - now - shy - which - never - were -
> accustomed -
> > to - going - away from - people
> > > but these (horses), which never used to run away from people, were
> > now skittish,
> > >
> > > completely differently!!
> > > I had it as [literally] the horses were never used to walk under a
> > man - i.e. they were not used to being ridden (and so were
> skittish)!!
> > oops!
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Sarah.
> > > ----- Original Message -----
> > > From: HYPERLINK "mailto:llawryf@..."Laurel Bradshaw
> > > To: HYPERLINK
> > "mailto:norse_course@yahoogroups.com"norse_course@yahoogroups.com
> > > Sent: Saturday, November 15, 2003 11:41 PM
> > > Subject: [norse_course] Hrafnkel 101-125 / Laurel's
> > >
> > > Einarr kvað sér eigi mundu svá meingefit at ríða þeim hesti,
> > > Einarr - declared - himself - not - should - so - maliciously
> > inclined - to - ride - this - horse
> > > Einar said that he would not be so ill-minded as to ride this
> horse,
> > >
> > > er honum var bannat, ef þó væri mõrg õnnur til.
> > > which - to him - was - forbidden - if - yet - were - many -
> others -
> > towards
> > > which was forbidden to him, especially if there were many others
> to use.
> > >
> > >
> > > Einarr ferr nú heim eptir klæðum sínum ok flytr heim á Að
> alból.
> > > Einarr - goes - now - home - after - clothing - his - and -
> removed
> > - home - to - Aðalból
> > > Einar then went home to get his clothing and moved over to
> Adalbol.
> > >
> > > Síðan var fÅ"rt (foert) í sel fram í Hrafnkelsdal,
> > > afterwards - was - brought - within - shieling - forward - in -
> > Hrafnkelsdalr
> > > After that (the sheep) were driven to a shieling in the upper part
> > of Hrafnkel's Valley,
> > >
> > > þar sem heitir á Grjótteigsseli.
> > > where - was called - Grjótteigssel
> > > which was called the Grjotteig shieling.
> > >
> > > Einari ferr allvel at um sumarit,
> > > Einarr - goes - very well - concerning - during - the summer
> > > Einar fared very well at it during the summer,
> > >
> > > svá at aldri verðr sauðvant fram allt til miðsumars,
> > > so - that - never - happens - missing sheep - from - all the way -
> > to - midsummer
> > > so that no sheep were lost in all the time up to midsummer,
> > >
> > > en þá var vant nær þremr tigum ásauðar eina nótt.
> > > but - then - was - lacking - nearly - three - of ten - of ewe -
> one
> > night
> > > but then one night nearly thirty ewes were missing.
> > >
> > > Leitar Einarr um alla haga ok finnr eigi.
> > > seeks - Einarr - about - all - pastures - and - finds - not
> > > Einar searched all the pastures and found nothing.
> > >
> > > Honum var vant nær viku.
> > > to him - was - lack - nearly - a week
> > > They were missing for almost a week.
> > >
> > >
> > > Þat var einn morgin, at Einarr gekk út snimma,
> > > it - was - one - morning - that - Einarr - goes - out - early
> > > Einar went out early one morning,
> > >
> > > ok er þá létt af allri sunnanþokunni ok úrinu.
> > > and - is - then - lifted - off - all - the mist from the south -
> and
> > - the drizzle
> > > and the mist from the south and the drizzle had all cleared.
> > >
> > > Hann tekr staf í hõnd sér, beizl ok þófa.
> > > he - takes - a staff - in - hand - his - a bridle - and - a
> saddle-pad
> > > He took a staff in his hand, a bridle and a saddle-cloth.
> > >
> > > Gengr hann þá fram yfir ána Grjótteigsá.
> > > goes - he - then - forward - over - the river - Grjótteigsá
> > > He went across the river Grjotteigsa (Grjotteig River),
> > >
> > > Hon fell fyrir framan selit.
> > > it - flows - in front of - forward - the shieling
> > > which flowed down from the shieling.
> > >
> > > En þar á eyrunum lá fé þat, er heima hafði verit um kveldit.
> > > and - there - on - the gravel banks - lie - livestock - which - at
> > home - had - been - during - the evening
> > > There, lying on the gravel banks, were the sheep that had been at
> > home during the evening.
> > >
> > > Hann støkkði því heim at selinu,
> > > he - drove - it [the sheep, collectively] - home - to - the
> shieling
> > > He drove them back to the shieling,
> > >
> > > en ferr at leita hins, er vant var áðr.
> > > and - went - to - seek - them - who - missing - were - earlier
> > > and went to look for the ones who were missing earlier.
> > >
> > > Hann sér nú stóðhrossin fram á eyrunum
> > > he - sees - now - the stud horses - forward - on - the gravel
> banks
> > > Then he saw the horses ahead on the gravel banks
> > >
> > > ok hugsar at hõndla sér hross nõkkurt til reiðar ok þóttisk
> vita,
> > > and - considers - to - seize - himself - a horse - certain/any -
> for
> > - service - and - thinking - to know
> > > and decided to catch one of the horses to use, believing
> > >
> > > at hann mundi fljótara yfir bera, ef hann riði heldr en gengi.
> > > that - he - would - more swiftly - over - to carry - if - he -
> rides
> > - rather - than - walks
> > > that he would make quicker progress if he rode rather than walked.
> > >
> > >
> > > Ok er hann kom til hrossanna, þá elti hann þau,
> > > and - when - he - comes - up to - the horses - then - chases -
> he - them
> > > So when he reached the horses, he chased them,
> > >
> > > ok váru þau nú skjõrr, er aldri váru võn at ganga undan
> manni,
> > > and - were - these - now - shy - which - never - were -
> accustomed -
> > to - going - away from - people
> > > but these (horses), which never used to run away from people, were
> > now skittish,
> > >
> > > nema Freyfaxi einn.
> > > except - Freyfaxi - alone
> > > except for Freyfaxi alone.
> > >
> > > Hann var svá kyrr sem hann væri grafinn niðr.
> > > he - was - as - quiet - as if - he - were - rooted - down
> > > He was as still as if he were rooted to the ground.
> > >
> > >
> > > Einarr veit, at líðr morgunninn, ok hyggr,
> > > Einarr - knows - that - passes - the morning - and - considers
> > > Einar knew that the morning was passing, and decided
> > >
> > > at Hrafnkell mundi eigi vita, þótt hann riði hestinum.
> > > that - Hrafnkell - would - not - know - that - he - rides - the
> stallion
> > > that Hrafnkel would never know that he rode the stallion.
> > >
> > > Nú tekr hann hestinn ok slær við beizli,
> > > now - takes - he - the stallion - and - forms - with - bridle
> > > So he took the stallion and bridled him,
> > >
> > > lætr þófa á bak hestinum undir sik ok ríðr upp hjá
> Grjótárgili,
> > > places - saddlepad - on - back - the stallion - under - himself -
> > and - rides - up - by - Grjótárgil
> > > placed a saddlecloth under himself on the back of the stallion and
> > rode up by Grjotargil (Rocky River Gorge?),
> > >
> > > svá upp til jõkla ok vestr með jõklunum,
> > > also - up - to - glaciers - and - west - along - the glaciers
> > > and up to the glaciers and west along the glaciers,
> > >
> > > þar sem Jõkulsá fellr undir þeim,
> > > there - where - Jõkulsá - flows - away from - them
> > > to where the Jokulsa (Glacier River) flows out from beneath them,
> > >
> > > svá ofan með ánni til Reykjasels.
> > > also - down - along - the river - to - Reykjasel
> > > and then down along the river to the Reykja shieling.
> > >
> > >
> > > A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
> > >
> > > Homepage: HYPERLINK
> > "http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/"http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
> > >
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> > >
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> > > A Norse funny farm, overrun by smart people.
> > >
> > > Homepage: HYPERLINK
> > "http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/"http://www.hi.is/~haukurth/norse/
> > >
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