Heilir góðir nemendr.

--- In norse_course@yahoogroups.com, Haukur Thorgeirsson
<haukurth@...> wrote:

> > The examples here are not dirct equivalents in English of the

Norse change in endings. The older English ending <-(e)th> is 3rd
per. Present indicative not subjunctive, whereas Norse <fari> is
present subjunctive, isn't it?

Yes, the 3rd pers. pres. sg. -eth ending is indicative. I have read
most of the English Romantics and am aware that the -eth ending has
been used in literature with a subjunctive meaning, but such usage
is incorrect. Many learned and bright English poets had no training
in the proper use of the subjuctive in English. This lack of proper
training is still evident today. Some modern poets and writers have
even gone so far as too deny or reject the subjunctive in English.
However, those writers whose culture and thinking are truly Germanic
are seldom guilty of this mistake in writing. The fact that so many
writers of Modern English reject inherited grammar and real English
words in favor of loanwords is a clear sign that most speakers and
writers of Modern English are no longer Germanic in a any cultural
or philosophical sense. On the other hand, there are still those who
refuse to use Modern English as a literary language in any other way
than as a Germanic language.

Regarding the subjunctive in daily speech, here is an understandable
and clear example of right usage:

Indicative: I WAS tired. ON Ek var þreyttr.
Subjuctive: WERE I tired, then.... ON Væri ek þreyttr, þá....

> >> He insisteth that she go.
> >> *He insisteth that she goeth.

Right.

> > You can say in English:
> >
> > "He insists that she go" (subjunctive)
> > "He insists that she goes" (indicative)
> >
> > Both equally right and quite common.

Common is one thing, right is another. The right option above is the
first one, as the verb 'insist' suggests a subjuctive meaning. The
verbal ending -s in 'she goes' in indicative, not subjuctive. It is
simply a common modern substitute for -eth and never subjunctive.

> Agreed. I understand the first is more formal.

The first line is correct, the second an example of bad usage.

> Early literary Modern English sometimes helps us
> with Old Norse where colloquial 21st century
> Modern English doesn't.

See my remarks above Modern English as a Germanic language.

> In the first NC lesson, for example, I took some
> phrases from the KJV of the Bible. "I am he who liveth." etc.

Biblical language is something of a universal standard for Germanic
tongues as a whole, representing good usage. However, the new trend
of translating the Bible into ever simpler modern speech has meant
that this standard is no longer universal in Germanic tongues. The
reason for this trend is the desire on the part of many missionaries
to win cheap and easy converts without the baggage of upholding the
English tongue as a Germanic cultural institution. In view of this,
it should hardly be surprising that so few Engish attend church more
than once a year, if at all.

> If I ever get to the point of writing a NC lesson
> introducing the subjunctive I'll certainly start with
> some subjunctive examples from English.

This would undoubtedly be helpful to speakers of Modern English.

> Anway, the point here was that only the first of the two
> following sentences are correct Icelandic.
>
> Hann vill at hon fari.
> *Hann vill at hon ferr.

Likewise and literally in English: 'He will that she fare', but not
'He will that she fareth'.

Regards,
Konrad.

> Kveðja,
> Haukur