From: frabrig
Message: 71447
Date: 2013-10-20
Again with reference to the fake etymologies Lalit Mishra further discusses at
http://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/cybalist/conversations/messages/71440
>1. Dog
>
> Pls note that the complete word is शुनाशेप or शुनःशेप that means “tailed dog”.
Wrong. The Skt. personal name Śunaḥśepa means ‘dog’s tail’ as also ‘the genital organ of a dog’, not “tailed dog”, because śunas is the genitive singular of śvan ‘dog’, and śepa obviously means ‘penis, tail’ in Vedic and not at all “dog” as initially claimed by you.
The Munda words for ‘dog’ we are dealing with are: seta, sita, sɛta, sɛlog, soloʔ, (kǝn-)sod, (gu-)sɔd, (gu-)sɔʔ, etc. Zide & Zide reconstruct Proto-Munda *seXdʔ (alternating with *soXdʔ), where -X- denotes a vowel feature that, according to them, must be reconstructed to Proto-Munda. Suggestions have been made that this Proto-Munda word is cognate with the reconstructed Proto-Mon-Khmer word for ‘dog’, *cɔʔ.
> In Munda languages, somehow, शुनः/शुना (shuna) is not that popular.
> With using word similar to शेप they understand and refer to “dog”.
This lexical explanation of yours is totally crazy. The Mundas can in no way have adopted a shortened version of the Vedic personal name Śunaḥśepa as their basic word for ‘dog’. As I said, śepa only means ‘penis, tail’; this term, in and by itself, does not suggest the idea of “dog”. In addition to this, Skt. śepa has no phonetic resemblance to the Munda words for ‘dog’ listed above.
> 2. Head/Forehead
>
>You don’t understand Munda, therefore, you are not supposed to
> know that baha, boho, etc. mean the forehead or bhaal [he means
> Classical Skt. bhāla ‘forehead’ -- FB]. The project team has done a
> little mistake in their table, in fact, in regular talks boho/baha is used
> to denote identity also, not merely in the sense of “head”.
This set of Munda cognates for ‘head, top, chief’ is: bohoʔ, bahaʔ, bokoʔ, bokoʔb, boʔb, boʔ, etc. Can’t you see there is always a glottal stop in all these words? Where does the latter sound come from, if these terms are all borrowed from Skt. bhāla as you are claiming? And where do the intervocalic -h-/-k- sounds included in these Munda words arise from, if they were all borrowed from Skt. bhāla?
> 3. lola
>
> You are admitting that lola means tongue, I provided an explanation
> that it’s due to tenderness, you have no idea that a derivative of lola, the
> “lolar”, means love one feels for tender age children.
The term lola means tongue in that it derives from the verbal root luḍ- ‘to roll, swing, agitate’ > *loḍa > lola ‘hanging’ (Mbh) > Kashmiri lolo, Gujarati loḷɔ ‘tongue’. Also Hindi lolī ‘lullaby’, lolo ‘child’s penis’ etc.
How can one compare these words with Munda terms such as alaŋ, laŋ, leʔe, leʔaŋ, laʔaŋ, nle, nlia etc., all meaning ‘tongue’? Only initial l- is sometimes shared by the two sets of words!
> 4. sarṣapa
>
> That’s indeed mustard as you are admitting and since, mustard (sarason
> [he means Hindi sarsõ -- FB]) is yellow in color, Munda people started using
> it for the color “yellow”. Don't you really know linguistic implications and kind of
> transformation happens when words/root of words are taken into a different
> language than the source language, how you expect exact translation?
The Munda words you cited (saŋsaŋ, sasaŋ, but also simply saŋ in Juang and Sora) mean ‘yellow’ because they are words used for turmeric, a different plant from mustard! Moreover, these Munda forms are most likely the product of CVC- or CV-reduplication from the noun root saŋ. Therefore, no linguistic connection can be posited between this group of Munda words and Skt. sarṣapa ‘mustard seed’ (most probably a non-Indo-European substrate word).
> 5. drava
>
> You are admitting that drava is water, however adding “Later Vedic period” to it,
> that doesn’t make a difference since Munda has taken words from Pre Classical and
> Classical Sanskrit and we are aware of changes happened in use.
I did not write “Later Vedic”, I wrote “Middle Indo-Aryan”. Indeed, it is only in Prakrit languages that dava, a derivative of Skt. drava ‘running, flowing’ (from the root dru- ‘to run’), acquires the meaning ‘water’.
The Munda words for ‘water’ you would like to impossibly derive from Skt. drava go back to a Proto-Austroasiatic form *dak whose reflexes are found in both the Munda and Mon-Khmer branches of the Austroasiatic language family. Thus, Monic, Nicobarese, Bahnaric etc. have dak. Would you suggest these Mon-Khmer languages, too, borrowed these forms from Skt. drava?
FB
---In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, <cybalist@yahoogroups.com> wrote:Dear F Brighenty,Austroasiatic etymologies are not applicable for Muna language, no use citing Austroasiatic etymology, since, these two languages, are in fact, dialects not the languages and as I revealed over here, the methodology used in the research as well as scope frozen for the research is incorrect for the reason that research has not taken the whole eco-system into account, I w'd say the methodology used was very primitive, immature.Looking up a word into Monnier Williams Dictionary doesn't make you a knower of Sanskrit, I see, you are copying all the meanings from Monnier Williams and that's not a right approch, You should take a linguistic's approach rather than just looking up meanings in a dictionary, the explanations made below may help you grasp the idea -1. DogPls note that the complete word is शुनाशेप or शुनःशेप that means "Tailed Dog" , In munda languages, somehow, शुनः/शुना (shuna) is not that popular, With using word similar to शेप they understand and refer to "Dog", they also use other words like "Kukur" for Dog thats also taken from Sanskrit.Hope you know that Sarama is called Deva Shuni, Any further confusions, pls read John Hopkins article accessible through the link given below :2. Head/ForeheadYou dont understand Munda, therefore, you are not supposed to know that {baha, boho, etc} mean the forhead or Bhaal, The project team has done a litltle mistake in their table, in fact, in regular talks boho/baha is used to denote identity also, not merely in the sense of "head", Well, it's suprising that you don't uderstand linguistic implications and kind of transformation happens when words/root of words are taken into a different language than the source language, How you expect exact transalation ?3. LolaYou are admitting that Lola means tongue, I provided an explanation that it's due to tenderness, you have no idea that a derivative of Lola the "Lolar" means love one feels for tender age children, Try to contemplate on the inputs and explanations provided, also, no use adding "Later Vedic Period" in the given context, that doesn't make a difference, remember, I said that Munda has taken words from Pre Classical and Classical Sanskrit.4. SarsapaThat's indeed mustard as you are admitting and since, mustard ( sarason) is yellow in color, Munda people started using it for the color "Yellow". Don't you really know linguistic implications and kind of transformation happens when words/root of words are taken into a different language than the source language, How you expect exact transalation ?5. DravaYou are adimitting that Drava is water, however adding "Later Vedic Period" to it, that doesn't make a difference since Munda has taken words from Pre Classical and Classical Sanskrit and we are aware of changes happend in use , Also note another vedic term, rather an easy term for you to uderstand - "Draps".
To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sunday, October 20, 2013 2:47 AM
Subject: RE: Re: Re: [tied] RE: Hindu noise-makers, Elst and OIT -- a reviewRe: Lalit Mishra’s post atYou, Lalit, have picked up some sets of Munda cognates atand compared them with some vaguely similar-sounding Sanskrit words to try to show that Munda langages derive from Sanskrit -- no less!However, the Sanskrit meanings you have added are all wrong:1) s’epa- means ‘penis, tail’ in Vedic, and not at all “dog” as claimed by you;2) bhāla- (a very late Sanskrit word, first attested in Kavya poetry) means ‘forehead’, not “head” as claimed by you;3) lola- (attested in the Mahabharata but not in Vedic) means ‘hanging’, not “tenderness” as claimed by you; only in New Indo-Aryan some of its derivatives mean ‘tongue’;4) drava- means ‘running, flowing’ in Vedic; only its Middle Indo-Aryan derivatives (dava etc.) start to mean ‘water’;5) sars.apa- just means ‘mustard seed’ in Vedic, and none of its derivatives in Indo-Aryan denotes a mustard-like color as claimed by you.The sets of Munda cognates you have randomly chosen for your “indigenist” comparison have their own Austroasiatic etymologies which have nothing to do with Sanskrit.Regards,Francesco