From: stlatos
Message: 70530
Date: 2012-12-09
>Borrowed words like ro:bus with eu > ou > o: instead of u: (as in native L. words) indicate Oscan-Umbrian, like L., voiced internal bh > ph > f > v , but, unlike L., no v > b . In borrowing a word with -v-, which didn't exist at that stage in L., it was replaced by either b or f, both one feature away, creating doublets like ro:bus : ru:fus (if f > v only occurred in 1 O-U language (with ou > o:), it still would be hard to tell all the details, but that's not important). All that matters is it's analogous to v- > f- \ b- or f- > bortitz \ portitz , not to a two-stage borrowing (in which the rest of, say, bortitz \ portitz, would likely be dif.).
> Where's "Oscan-Umbrian /v/"?
>
> 2012/12/8, stlatos <sean@...>:
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Bhrihskwobhloukstroy
> > <bhrihstlobhrouzghdhroy@> wrote:
> >>
> >> For instance (Oscan-Umbrian loanwords)?
> >>
> >> 2012/12/8, stlatos <sean@>:
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@> wrote:
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >> A doublet like <bortitz>/<portitz> from Lat. <fortis> in this view
> >> >> requires no intermediate language, merely an earlier and later stage
> >> >> of
> >> >> borrowing the same word.
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > I don't think 2 stages of borrowing are needed. If Bq. had no f,
> >> > then
> >> > either f > p or f > v ( > b later) would be equally good substitutions.
> >> > This is sim. to how L. borrowed Osc-U. words with -v- as either -b- or
> >> > -f-
> >> > (before w > v in L.).
> >> >
> >
> >
> > Sihler mentioned ro:bus : ru:fus, *londH- > lumbi: = loins (and some
> > related words). He compared it to opt. OE borrowings of v (vannus > fann,
> > v- > berbena, etc.). Either shows the reality of what I proposed.
> >