Re: What is "North Venetic"? (was: PIE suffix =t in food?)

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Rick McCallister <gabaroo6958@...> wrote:

>
> *Venedic may be a better spelling, given that it refers to various tribes known as Venedi, etc. among the later Celts, Slav, etc. It may even the Vanir as the gods of a vanquished people. In any case, it may be a better name for NWB and the IE substrate of Central and NWestern Europe. Its sporadic appearance  as a tribal name may indicate assimilated groups of Venedic origin, or as in the case of the Wends, the word may be used in the same sense as Volcae > Welsh.

The spelling <Venedi> was invented by Aldus. The best mss. of Tacitus have <Venethi>. Evidently T. used the graphy <th> to indicate either [T] or [D] in names coming through Germanic. Place-names with this element show that the original *t was shifted to *T, then voiced to *D by Verner's Law, as expected in this position.

Clearly the Paleo-Germans before the Lautverschiebung knew the Veneti and Volcae as neighbors, both names undergoing shifting and generalized to 'neighbors on the east' and 'south' respectively, continuing in use even after the original tribes had been replaced by Slavs and Celts.

I identify Hans Kuhn's NWB language with Belgic (distinct from Gaulish in Caesar's time), a later stratum than Venetic in this area. Three places have the Britto-Latin name Venta, which I consider identical to Venetia 'Venice'. That is, Venetic *Wenetja: 'habitation of Veneti' underwent /j/-gemination, syncope, and degemination in Insular Belgic to *Went(t)a(:), whence Old British *Wenta:, Latin Venta.

> ________________________________
> From: Jörg Rhiemeier <joerg_rhiemeier@...>
> To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Friday, November 23, 2012 10:33 AM
> Subject: [tied] What is "North Venetic"? (was: PIE suffix =t in food?)
>
> Hallo Indo-Europeanists!
>
> On Friday 23 November 2012 02:25:40 johnvertical wrote:
>
> > [...]
> >
> > > Anatolian and Tocharian are ruled out, but Venetic would work, with
> > > vocalization of PIE syllabic */r./ to *-or- as in Latin.
> >
> > I see. But do we run into problems since this item is found in Mordvinic as
> > well? How far east can North Venetic be assumed to have been spoken?

I have no problem with Veneti this far east.

> What is "North Venetic"?  And why does Venetic figure at all in
> this discussion of language contact between IE and Uralic
> languages?  The only Venetic I know of is an IE language of
> ancient northeastern Italy that probably was closely related to
> Italic - and *never* was spoken anywhere near *any* Uralic
> language.

That is the only known WRITTEN Venetic, but Veneti/(H)enetoi are known from other places, mostly with maritime access. The "maritime Gauls" by that name never let Caesar get close enough to determine their language, and I suspect the immediate pre-Celtic substrate in Aremorica was Venetic.

DGK