From: Octavià Alexandre
Message: 69463
Date: 2012-04-30
De:
The Egyptian Chronicles [mailto:the_egyptian_chronicles@...]
Enviado el: lunes, 30 de abril de
2012 5:35
Para: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
CC: Tavi
Asunto: DOBUR / DOBHAR <
=====> DIBAR / DABRA-H
> Dabuwr/Dubuwr: A violent wind blowing from the west. dbr: an evil omen referring to gloom in connection to the west wind, > also referring to a tract of the western sky at sunset. For expanded definitions click below:
>
>
> > Very interesting. Given the absence of Semitic cognates, we must assume this is a loanword from some language spoken in the SE Mediterranean area.
>
> Ishinan's response: You seem to believe that in the absence of Semitic cognates, it must be a loanword. What makes you so sure of that assertion? Is it a hunch of yours or is > it an establish theory?
>
Arabic has lots of words not found in other Semitic languages but with cognates elsewhere. So we must presume they’re loanwords and not part of the native lexicon, i.e. inherited from Proto-Semitic.
> If it is the latter, would you kindly expound on it? Moreover, by SE Mediterranean area, what do you have in mind?
>
Aegean (the Group of Minoan/Eteocretan and Eteocypriot) would be a likely candidate.
> Just to make it more interesting to you, I will introduce you to yet another C. A. term from a secondary root dbr (2): "dibar / dabra-h" which means "water channel."
>
>
> Now compare it with the Old Irish "dobur" & modern Gaelic as "dobhar" below:
>
> "The eighteenth-century writer quoted by Blake and Lloyd, Theophilus Evans, makes the equation between Wysc and a word ‘visc’ used ‘by the Gwyddel of Ireland… for
> Dwfr’; in fact, the word occurs as uisg in Gaelic to mean ‘water’ and is found in an early Irish glossary in the form esc. What this shows is that the Brittonic word *ĭscā, ‘water’, > has a cognate in Irish; so does dwfr, which occurs in Old Irish as dobur and modern Gaelic as dobhar. In other words, both languages have more than one word for water. This > is not surprising. However, the evidence of placenames suggests that those rivers regarded as being *ĭscās were not interchangeable with those regarded as *dŭbrās. The
> former have names that survive as various Axes, Exes, Usks and so on; the latter include the River Dee (Welsh Dyfrdwy, literally ‘waters of Dee’, *dŭbrās dēuās)." Ref. The
> River Severn/Hafren and Caerleon/Caerlleon
>
Yes, this is Celtic *dubro- ‘water’ (which Matasovic conflates with *dubo- ‘dark’), although the proposed link to other IE words meaning ‘deep’ is also dubious IMHO (see Delamarre’s Dictionnaire de la langue gauloise for more details).
I’d relate this and the Arabic word to the hydronym Tiber, likely of Etruscan origin (thepri-, thefri- thifari- ‘channel’) and to Pre-Greek *dabur in laburínthos. This is parallel to Hurrian tem-ari ‘irrigation ditch; channel’, which Starostin links to NEC *ta:mh\i ‘vein; pipe, kennel’. There’s also Turkic *da.mor ‘vein, artery; root’.