Re: PIE vestuary

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Tavi" <oalexandre@...> wrote:

>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@> wrote:
> >
> > > > Latin pannus "fabric", Greek pe:nos "cloth", OE fana
> > > > "banner" < PIE *peH2n-?
> > >
> > > I think this etymology is incorrect for the Latin word for two main
> > > reasons:
> > > 1) We should expect *pa:nus instead of pannus.
> >
> > Dialectal (what I call "Sabino-Latin"); cf. <cuppa> beside <cu:pa>;
> <Juppiter> (orig. voc.) beside Romano-Latin <Die:spiter>, etc.
> >
> That's OK, but we've still got no *pa:nus here.

Not attested, since ragmen were plebeians, and would have used Sabino-Latin <pannus>, which would have ousted Romano-Latin *pa:nus, since patricians had better things to do than handling rags.

> > > 2) The Latin word also means 'rag'.
> >
> > What happens to worn-out fabrics? Riches to rags!
> >
> I think this would be the *primary* meaning. Rags are tore out from
> cloth, hence the semantic link (e.g. Spanish colgajo 'shred, strip' from
> colgar 'to hang').

Yes, I think 'rag' was the principal sense of <pannus>.

> 3) Last, but not least, the link between the Greek and Germanic words is
> also dubious.

The Gmc. words have zero-grade, which is hardly a problem.

> > > Assuming this was the original meaning, IMHO this would be a
> > > Paleo-Italic (Ligurian?) loanword *panno- corresponding to Italic
> *pend-
> > > > Latin pendeo: 'to hang', pondus 'weigh', Celtic *Fondo- 'stone',
> with
> > > -nd- > -nn- and -o- > -a-. For the semantic connection, see Spanish
> > > colgajo 'strip, shred' from colgar 'to hang'.
> >
> > Ligurian would not yield *panno- from *pendo-.
> >
> It actually would be *pondo- > *panno-.

Ligurian preserves /o/- in /o/-grade, as in *Borm- 'warm spring'. It also keeps -nd-, as in <Vindupale> (Sent. Minuc.).

> > > NB: IMHO "Italo-Celtic" reflects an Italic substrate/adstrate in
> Celtic,
> > > and not a taxon node.
> >
> > Why create confusion by using an established term in an idiosyncratic
> way?
> >
> More than "using" it, I'm *explaining* it. That is, I see as a substrate
> or adstrate what other people think it's a genetic relationship.

But your parastrate is still not identical to other people's Italo-Celtic. You could simply call it Italic parastrate.

DGK