Re: Kluge's Law in Italic? (was: Volcae and Volsci)

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "stlatos" <stlatos@...> wrote:

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> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@> wrote:
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> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "stlatos" <stlatos@> wrote:
> > >
> > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "stlatos" <stlatos@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "stlatos" <stlatos@> wrote:
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> > > > > I think the only semantic connection is 'wide, broad, spread out' w 'wide (field), earth (goddess)', such as Litavi: Gaul; Plataiaí G; pr,th[i]ví:- V S; ptsí = measure for fields Kamv; and formally the suffix is the very common "god-maker" *-xY-n.o- .
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> > What basis do you have for arbitrarily infixing a lateral into a PIE root?
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> I didn't say it was an infix, just that derivatives of the roots both meant 'wide', etc. It's possible they're related, but PIE didn't fix the order of C; it was morphologically arbitrary (probably changed to make the best phonotactic arrangement as each new C was added).
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> > > > Another bit of ev. for the equivalent meaning 'wide' for deriv. of *pet-x+ and *pelt-x+ in at least Italic is:
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> > > > Patavium L; Padua It;
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> > > > a place-name orig. prob. just 'field, land', like Plataiaí , etc.
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> > That is a mere guess on your part. The -d- is ancient (Catullus etc.) and the -t- in <Patavium> is best explained as reflecting an Etruscan intermediate form, since this area was heavily colonized by Etruscans in the 7th-6th c. BCE. That is, the pre-Etr. protoform *Padowi- was Etruscanized as *Patawi- and passed to the archaic Romans as *Pataviom.
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> I don't think any additional complications are needed. It's already seen that tx > tHx was opt.:
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> pathana- = broad Av; [e>a-a] patáne: = flat dish G;
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> and tH > T > D > d in Latin.

No; see <status>.

> Even assuming they're the same, rivers are also named from 'wide', as in potamós = river G.
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> Many place-names in Italy (not necessarily Latin or even Italic) seemed to be named from words for 'wide' like:
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> Lavernium, Lavinium, Laurentum
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> from
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> * LaxYs.w+ \ Laws.-xY+ = covering > thin flat stone / burial slab / wide shelf / etc.
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> as in
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> laws^ = thin flat bread MArm;
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> * La:huNkos > lâ:igx = small stone G;
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> ? >> lousa = slab/tombstone Portu;
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> la:ru(v)a > la:rva = bad ghost/spirit / mask L;
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> > > So, assuming a relation of pateo: with petánnu:mi , met. of e-a: > a-e: could have been included, instead of a derivative in *-exY+, though it's hard to tell.
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> > Hard to tell anything, when arbitrary optional soundlaws are pulled out of a hat!
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> What is more or less arbitrary than your * pht- that can't explain the -a- in pathana- = broad Av; etc., and the necessarily opt. e>a-a in patáne: = flat dish G; vs. pétalos = broad / flat G; (one of many obvious irregular assimilations in G short vowels)? It should be obvious, in this root in particular, that many irregular and opt. changes occurred in IE, including the tn>dn>nd that you argue against.

I reject the notion that Greek <pétalos> 'unfolded, spread out' and <patáne:> 'plate' reflect the same root. The latter is formed like <dapáne:> 'cost, expense', corradical with Latin <damnum> 'loss, damage, penalty' and Old Norse <tafn> 'sacrificial animal or meal' (discussed in my long post), all from the zero-grade of PIE *deh2/4p- 'to give in exchange' vel sim. Therefore, <patáne:> can be derived from PIE *peh2t- 'to graze, feed', originally the prolongative of *peh2- 'to guard, protect' (as discussed), and it belongs with <patéomai> 'I feed (myself) on, eat, taste' rather than <petánnu:mi> 'I spread out'. Probably the noun was originally abstract, '(act of) feeding', then denoted 'meal, dinner', then 'dinner on a plate', and finally 'dinner plate' itself.

If Greek <potamós> originally meant 'broad river', not 'rushing as though flying river', we can explain it as well as Avestan <paþana-> 'broad' by postulating a PIE root *peth4- 'to broaden, stretch out', avoiding Walde's makeshift of importing -þ- from Av. <p@...@þu-> 'broad' (Sanskrit <pr.thú->, Grk. <platús>, PIE *pl.th4ú-). The suffix of Av. <paþana-> is evidently
barytone *-eno-, which takes full grade in Lat. <pa:gina> 'that to which vines are fixed, trellis', Skt. <vá:hana-> 'conveyance, vehicle'. While <potamós> reflects PIE *poth4-mó-, Germanic *faþmaz 'fathom' requires *póth4-mo-, referring to the action of stretching out the arms. This root is not to be confused with *peth2- 'to fly, fall', a non-aspirating set.-root (Skt. <patitá-> etc.).

Epic Greek <péptamai> 'I am widely extended' and <peptaménos> 'opened wide' should be assigned to *peth4-. Dictionaries list these forms under <petánnu:mi>, which I consider incorrect, since I get the latter from *peh1th2- (as argued in my long post with *h4 for *h2 per meam culpam). The aorist <epétasa> is formed like <edámasa> 'I tamed', which has zero-grade (*h1é-dm.h2-s-m.), so the sequence -peta- is also zero-grade, *-ph1.th2.-, and this cannot be reflected in <péptamai>. Probably <pétalos> also reflects *ph1.t(h2)- rather than *pet(h4)-, since comparable proparoxytones have zero-grade, e.g. <ptúalon> 'saliva', <síalon> 'id.' (cf. <síai> : <ptúsai> Hes.).

No conclusions can be drawn from the superficial similarity of some place-names in Latium. Laurentum is commonly referred to <laurus> 'laurel', a non-IE word as shown by Greek dialectal variation, but the connection is uncertain. Without further information, one might equally well cite <laurex> 'young rabbit' (Balearic according to Pliny), <laurio:> 'serpyllum, thyme' (Gaulish, Plin. Val.), or Greek <laúra:> 'narrow passage, alley, sewer' as possible relations. Lavernium might be connected with Laverna, a goddess of gain worshipped on the Aventine Hill (and considered Etruscan by Ernout, Vetter, and Fiesel), or conceivably with <laver> 'edible seaweed, Porphyra sp.'. La:vi:nium might be related to Grk. <lâas> 'stone', or to the river <Lâos> dividing Bruttium from Lucania, or to neither. Guessing at the meanings of place-names in order to further one's own etymological agenda is pointless.

DGK