Re: Romanized Bastarnians

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:

>
> --- On Mon, 12/26/11, Torsten <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@> wrote:
>
> > --- On Mon, 12/26/11, Torsten <tgpedersen@> wrote:
>
> >
> > But we just agreed that the Atmoni and Sidoni departed from the
> > area in mid-1st century BCE.
> >
> > GK: Could you remind me where we agreed to this? I don't seem to
> > remember.
>
> Sigh. I couldn't find my keys the other day. They were on the table,
> under a coffee mug.
>
> Here you go, your own words:
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/67450
> '2. The notion that the northern Bastarnians (Atmoni and Sidones)
> were (at least to some extent) evicted from their haunts by
> Burebista has some plausibility. There is no doubt at all that the
> Poeneshti-Lukashovka culture, now accepted as Bastarnian, ceased to
> exist in practically all areas where it was identified for the
> period ca. 200 BCE-ca. 50 BCE.'
>
> ****GK: This was speculation prior to my reading Pashkova and
> Nosevych. And the date for the practical disappearance of
> Poeneshti-Lukashovka has now been firmed up (=29 BCE).

Really? Source?

> Note also the caution in the earlier comment : "at least to some
> extent" + "some plausibility".

Yes, and 'There is no doubt'.

> No, we have to stick with the latest availale info, and forget
> speculation on the basis of earler incomplete data.*****

Okay, gimme.

> > (T) But the events of Mithridates' 'Sarmatian and Bastarnian wars'
> > must have 'fixirovatI' itself in the finds one way or another.
> > What else in the archaeology of the region would you point to?
> >
> > GK: I don't think anything notable exists for that period except
> > for some indicators in the ruins of Neapolis Scythica that
> > "something was going on" in the late 2nd c. BCE But that would be
> > the earlier conflict with Diophantes, not with the subsequent war
> > with ex-Scythian vassals. Nothing at all in the archaeology afaik
> > until the Bastarnian-Yazig conflicts and the Getan invasion after
> > Mithradates' death, and then after a spell the outmigration of
> > most Moldavian Bastarnians towards Dardania ca. 29 BCE, and the
> > subsequent reconsolidation of their remnants as Tacitus'
> > "Peucini".

Yeah, right.
Nosevych
http://vln.by/node/178
'Полесский вариант зарубинецкой культуры в это время исчезает, а его потомки, видимо, мигрируют в ареал пшеворской культуры, где формируются несколько смешанных пшеворско-зарубинецких групп: зубрицкая, типа Рахны, типа Гриневиче Вельке – Черничин.'

"The Poleski variant of the Zarubintsy culture at this time disappears, and its descendants seem to migrate into the area of the Przeworsk culture, where some mixed Przeworsk-Zarubintsy groups are formed: Zubritskaya, of the Rakhno type, of the Hryniewicze Wielkie - Chernichin type."

(BTW does that Russian construction after the colon mean there are three independent subgroups, or that there is one, with two subgroups?)

> >
> Either Plutarch is lying
> http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Plutarch/Moralia/Fortuna_Romanorum*.html#T324
> about those 'Sarmatian and Bastarnian wars' or there must be traces
> of them somewhere in the area, whether they should be located in new
> finds or by reinterpreting what we already have. No third option.
>
> *****GK: I don't know what you hope to discover.

Oh yes you do ;-)

> Whatever battles were fought in the field in those years left no
> traces.

Just like the Clades Variana? ;-)

> And there is no evidence at all of assaults on Bastarnian
> settlements similar to what we have in connexion with the Yazigian
> war (or with the destruction of Olbia by the Getae). There is
> nothing to "reinterpret" beyond the words of the extant historical
> docmentation. *****

Nosevych begs to differ.


Torsten