Re: Romanized Bastarnians

--- On Wed, 12/28/11, Torsten <tgpedersen@...> wrote:


From: Torsten <tgpedersen@...>
Subject: [tied] Re: Romanized Bastarnians
To: cybalist@yahoogroups.com
Date: Wednesday, December 28, 2011, 12:51 PM



 





--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@...> wrote:
>
> --- On Mon, 12/26/11, Torsten <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@> wrote:
>
> > --- On Mon, 12/26/11, Torsten <tgpedersen@> wrote:
>
> >
> > But we just agreed that the Atmoni and Sidoni departed from the
> > area in mid-1st century BCE.
> >
> > GK: Could you remind me where we agreed to this? I don't seem to
> > remember.
>
> Sigh. I couldn't find my keys the other day. They were on the table,
> under a coffee mug.
>
> Here you go, your own words:
> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/67450
> '2. The notion that the northern Bastarnians (Atmoni and Sidones)
> were (at least to some extent) evicted from their haunts by
> Burebista has some plausibility. There is no doubt at all that the
> Poeneshti-Lukashovka culture, now accepted as Bastarnian, ceased to
> exist in practically all areas where it was identified for the
> period ca. 200 BCE-ca. 50 BCE.'
>
> GK: This was speculation prior to my reading Pashkova and
> Nosevych. And the date for the practical disappearance of
> Poeneshti-Lukashovka has now been firmed up (=29 BCE).

Really? Source?

****GK: The archaeologists agreed that PL (except for piddling northern remnants mixed with the Polessians you mention below) was gone by the last decades of the 1rst c. BCE. The date 29 BCE is from Cassius Dio's account of the Bastarnian southward migration (you can easily find the text for that year and area) which the Romans had to reluctantly agree to. The notion that they headed to Dardania is my hypothesis.*****

> Note also the caution in the earlier comment : "at least to some
> extent" + "some plausibility".

Yes, and 'There is no doubt'.

> No, we have to stick with the latest availale info, and forget
> speculation on the basis of earler incomplete data.*****

Okay, gimme.

****I have****

> > (T) But the events of Mithridates' 'Sarmatian and Bastarnian wars'
> > must have 'fixirovatI' itself in the finds one way or another.
> > What else in the archaeology of the region would you point to?
> >
> > GK: I don't think anything notable exists for that period except
> > for some indicators in the ruins of Neapolis Scythica that
> > "something was going on" in the late 2nd c. BCE But that would be
> > the earlier conflict with Diophantes, not with the subsequent war
> > with ex-Scythian vassals. Nothing at all in the archaeology afaik
> > until the Bastarnian-Yazig conflicts and the Getan invasion after
> > Mithradates' death, and then after a spell the outmigration of
> > most Moldavian Bastarnians towards Dardania ca. 29 BCE, and the
> > subsequent reconsolidation of their remnants as Tacitus'
> > "Peucini".

Yeah, right.
Nosevych
http://vln.by/node/178
'Полесский вариант зарубинецкой культуры в это время исчезает, а его потомки, видимо, мигрируют в ареал пшеворской культуры, где формируются несколько
смешанных пшеворско-зарубинецких групп: зубрицкая, типа Рахны, типа Гриневиче Вельке – Черничин.'

"The Poleski variant of the Zarubintsy culture at this time disappears, and its descendants seem to migrate into the area of the Przeworsk culture, where some mixed Przeworsk-Zarubintsy groups are formed: Zubritskaya, of the Rakhno type, of the Hryniewicze Wielkie - Chernichin type."

(BTW does that Russian construction after the colon mean there are three independent subgroups, or that there is one, with two subgroups?)

*****GK: Whether 1 or three (different archaeologists say different things), they were all in the same area. Polessia is vacated after 50 CE, and the "Przeworsk" they mean is that of Ukrainian Galicia, not Poland.****

> >
> Either Plutarch is lying
> http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Plutarch/Moralia/Fortuna_Romanorum*.html#T324
> about those 'Sarmatian and Bastarnian wars' or there must be traces
> of them somewhere in the area, whether they should be located in new
> finds or by reinterpreting what we already have. No third option.
>
> GK: I don't know what you hope to discover.

Oh yes you do ;-)

*****GK: Judging from what you say below I would guess some equivalent of the clades Variana. Well until you do (or someone does) let's just say that there is no evidence for such a the moment. (:=))*****

> Whatever battles were fought in the field in those years left no
> traces.

Just like the Clades Variana? ;-)

*****GK: Hope is not reality my friend.*****

> And there is no evidence at all of assaults on Bastarnian
> settlements similar to what we have in connexion with the Yazigian
> war (or with the destruction of Olbia by the Getae). There is
> nothing to "reinterpret" beyond the words of the extant historical
> docmentation.

Nosevych begs to differ.


****GK: For the years prior to the first Roman-Pontic war? Where?*****