Re: Romanized Bastarnians

>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, george knysh <gknysh@> wrote:
> >
> > Merry Christmas!
>
> And likewise!
>
> > --- On Sun, 12/25/11, Torsten <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> >
> > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/67060
> >
> > 89 BCE Mithridates allies himself with 'Cimbri, the
> > Gallograecians, the Sarmatians, and the Bastarnians'
> >
> > 88 BCE 'the Sarmatian and Bastarnian wars restrained Mithridates'
> >
> > Did the Sarmatians and Bastarnians turn coat?
> > Is a mixture of these two peoples = the Romanized Bastarnae
> > entering Cimbrian Przeworsk?
> > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/68231
> > http://vln.by/node/178
> >
> > Or did the army Mithridates sent take over local Sarmatians and
> > Bastarnians, later to be isolated by development in the south?
> >

> >
> > GK: I would assume that the conflict with Sarmatians and
> > Bastarnians took place at the beginning of the Marsian war, when
> > things were going particularly badly for the Romans (i.e. in 91,
> > 90, and part of 89 BCE.) Plutarch's text gives no dates. By 88
> > Rome was victorious and Mithradates' "kindnesses" had won over
> > Sarmatians and Bastarnians.
>
> So you want to reverse the sequence of those two events?
> Offhand I can't think of anything that would preclude that.
>
> I would like to somehow include the fact of the Romanized Bastarnae
> being avoided by their traditional cousins as a sign of them being
> at opposite sides of a war at this time.
>

>
> ****GK: What "Romanized Bastarnians"?

These Romanized Bastarnians:
'Полесский вариант зарубинецкой культуры в это время исчезает, а его потомки, видимо, мигрируют в ареал пшеворской культуры, где формируются несколько смешанных пшеворско-зарубинецких групп: зубрицкая, типа Рахны, типа Ð"риневиче Ð'ельке â€" Черничин. При этом они отличаются уже не латенизированным, а романизированным обликом. Интерес представляет еще одно наблюдение Ð'. Е. Еременко: классические зарубинецкие традиции верхнеднепровского типа Чечерск-Кистени наиболее выразительно сохраняются в памятниках типов Почеп и Абидня (последний соответствует типу Ð"рини других авторов), при этом «складывается впечатление, что «классические» зарубинцы избегали общения со своими «романизированными» родственниками».'

The романизированные Bastarnae.

> Do you mean the groups that Nosevych mentioned as culturally
> influenced by the Romans of the Danube?

Yes.

> Acc. to him the process did not begin until the departure of the
> Poeneshti-Lukashovka people, and indeed not really until the
> destruction of classical Bastarnia in the mid-1rst c. CE.

But we just agreed that the Atmoni and Sidoni departed from the area in mid-1st century BCE.

> But this cultural "Romanization" was similar to the "Romanization"
> of the Gothic complex in the Chernyakhiv culture, i.e. it was a sort
> of a veneer (except of course for those Bastarnians who moved into
> Imperial territory around the end of the 3rd c. They became fully
> "Romans" in fairly short order.

That would be the kind of process you'd see if a Romanized or Roman army contingent conquered the area.

> Remember, though, that even at the height of "classical Bastarnia"
> the four main groupings (Poeneshti-Lukashovka and the three
> Zarubinian ones) did not always see eye to eye on things.*****

True. But the events of Mithridates' 'Sarmatian and Bastarnian wars' must have 'fixirovatI' itself in the finds one way or another. What else in the archaeology of the region would you point to?


Torsten