--- In
cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:
>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "bmscotttg" <bm.brian@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> >
> > > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Brian M. Scott" <bm.brian@>
> > > wrote:
> >
> > >> At 1:41:47 AM on Monday, June 27, 2011, Torsten wrote:
> >
> > >>> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, Piotr Gasiorowski
> > >>> <gpiotr@> wrote:
> >
> > >>>> W dniu 2011-06-26 08:09, Torsten pisze:
> >
> > >>>>> Trick question: what would happen to PIE *stVló- in
> > >>>>> Oscan?
> >
> > >>>> Two things wouldn't: *o > a: and k > g
> >
> > >>> That's true for a regular derivation within PIE; I suspect
> > >>> that both Latin (st)locus and Oscan sla(a)gi- are
> > >>> substrate words, related to those Boutkan discusses here:
> > >>> http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/61680
> > >>> the semantics of which, "swamp" etc, would match the Oscan
> > >>> sense of "border";
> >
> > >> Only if one deliberately distorts the attested semantics by
> > >> choosing the most atypical datum.
> >
> > > You're not expressing yourself very clearly. Do you mean to say
> > > that "border" is the most atypical sense of the two attested
> > > senses "border" and "region" of the three known occurrences of
> > > *sla(a)gi-?
> >
> > Of course not. I am obviously talking about 'those Boutkan
> > discusses here ... the semantics of which, "swamp" etc, would
> > match the Oscan sense of "border". The semantics of that group do
> > *not* match 'border': 'swamp, morass' is clearly an outlier.
> >
> > The repetition of the word 'semantics' and the fact that it was
> > the subject of the clause to which I was replying should have made
> > this obvious, and even a cursory review of Boutkan's data would
> > have confirmed the obvious.
>
> Only three obviouses and one clearly, but it's a short text, of
> course.
>
> You should take a look at de Vries' proposal below Boutkan's article
> ('das bewerfender hauswand' should be 'das bewerfen der hauswand'),
> who relates them all to the material used in
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wattle_and_daub
> construction, basically clayey mud, making *slagan the act of
> daubing, slinging the daub onto the wattle. Villages in flat
> territory were bordered by terrain which couldn't be cultivated
> because it was too wet, ie. muddy.
from JSTOR:
John Phelps
INDO-EUROPEAN INITIAL sl
'This article' treats of Indo-European initial sl in relation to initial stl found in some of the derived languages. Since we discuss only the initial position that position will be understood whenever sl or stl is mentioned.
The theory is that sl is the original sound, retained by some languages, but which in some other languages became stl by a post-Indo-European intercalation of t.
1. A survey of the vocabularies of the various Indo-European languages, ancient and modern, discloses a remarkable, and, it seems, hitherto unnoticed fact:
The northern belt of languages - Gadhelic, Gaulish, Teutonic, Baltic, Slavic (except Bohemian), Armenian, and Indo-Iranian - have, and always have had, words in sl in some form, but none in stl. The southern belt - Greek, Latin, Romance,2 and Brythonic - have not, and historically never have had, any word in sl, but many in stl and its derivatives. Moreover, sl is found in the reconstructed Indo-European and stl is not.3
As a tentative explanation of this geographical cleavage we may assume that the original Indo-European speakers in their northern home spoke sl; and that those offshoots who migrated southerly to the shores of the Mediterranean Sea lost the facility for pronouncing initial sl as the result of contact with some autochthonous people to whom sl was unknown, and who pronounced it as stl.4
This result of contact with the sea-folk5 is borne out by the fact that Oscan (and inferentially Umbrian), which never reached the sea until historic times, retained sl, while the other Italic dialects on the coasts spoke only stl.1 Bohemian has the original sl together with stl, includÂing doublets in sl/stl, indicating an originally sl speech with local survivals of an importation of the stl influence through Venetic conÂtacts. A few words in Polish and East Slavic are explainable as loans from Bohemian. As to Brythonic we may assume that it was pre-historically in contact with the Mediterranean.' A few skl (never stl) words in English dialect are of Brythonic survival. Some English sl influence may be traced in Welsh and Cornish.
2. Whatever may have been the real prehistoric geographical and cultural relations of these speakers, it is the phonetic relation between the two groups of sounds, sl and stl, that indicates that the t is interÂcalary. The articulation of sl is effected wholly by tongue-movements. The tongue, in changing from the s to the l position, performs the diffiÂcult feat of instantaneously and completely reversing its shape. In the s position the tip is down, the sides are expanded, the surface is concave and the mass of the organ is raised. In the l position the tip is up, the sides contracted, the surface convex and the mass lowered. The audiÂtory effect of this is that the tip closes the orifice for the s sound at the precise instant that the sides open the orifices for the l sound. When these complicated movements are all performed with synchronous agility, accompanied with the requisite breath, the sound sl is heard. But if there is a lack of synchrony or coordination in any of the moveÂments some other sound must necessarily intervene. Now, the tip is the quickest and most agile part of the tongue, and a lack of synchrony first results in the upward click of the tip, bringing the tongue into the t position, before the contraction of the sides has opened the orifices for the l sound. In this uncoordinated movement t is midway between s and l, and the intercalation of t is a necessary consequence. Hence the resulting combination of sounds is stl. In other words, stl is a natural result of the effort to pronounce sl by a tongue undisciplined to the mechanics of the movement.
For example, the simple sound-imitation slop, slap, which could be formed at any linguistic epoch for the sound made by striking flat surÂfaces, hence for flat things and derived senses, is found in Latin proÂnounced stloppus, 'the sound made by slapping the distended cheek'; and in Breton stlapad 'coup de main, tape', stlapa, v. 'flanquer'.
This stl, once fixed in a language as a permanent combination of sounds, becomes itself, in turn, subject to sundry changes or developÂments :
3. The t sometimes shifts to a palatal stop, whence Vulg. Lat *scloppus (Ital. schioppo 'a gun') and Breton sklapan 'flanquer'. So, the doublets: Lat. stlis/sclis 'strife', Breton stlabez/sklabez 'ordure', stlej 'qui traine'/ sklejal 'trainer', stleug 'etrier'/skleug 'marchepied d'une voiture', Boh. stloustnouti/skloustnouti 'fett werden'. Lat. stl became everywhere scl in later Latin and Romance; but it never reverts to sl.8
4. A further shift of the stop results in spl, which is purely analogous since the lips have no part in the phonetic change of s to l. So, Ir. slaodim Î drag', OBret. stloit 'trainer', OFr. esclaon 'traineau', beside splaon, id.; Boh. stlesknouti 'zusammenschlagen', tleskatý = splesklý = pleskatý 'flachgedrückt'. - Gr. ÏÏειλάμεναι· ÏÏελλάμεναι, Hesych.; ÏÏαλει~Ïα· ÏÏολει~Ïα, Id. (See below, 7, for vowel insert).
5. In all these forms, viz: stl, skl (scl), spl, the s is sometimes dropped, perhaps by a delayed breath impulse, resulting in tl, kl (cl) pl. It would seem that tl is always derived from stl; but it cannot be said that kl (cl) pl are always derived from skl (scl) spl respectively. However, before assigning to Indo-European any word in tl, kl (cl) or pl, its posÂsible origin from stl should be examined. - Ex.: Boh. Å¡lapÄje 'der Schritt', tlapna 'der Tritt', tlap, tlapa 'die Pfote, Tappe, der Fuss', tlapot 'das Getappe ' - E slush, Boh. stloustnouti 'fett werden', tlouÅ¡t 'die Dicke', Pol. tluszcz 'fat, grease', tlusty (adj.) 'fat'. - Bret. stlapa, dial. sklapan, 'flanquer', Pol. klopot 'clatter of footsteps' (cf. tlapot), Fr. clapoter 'to clack the tongue', OFr. clop 'boiteux' (Fr. éclopé), clopeter, clopier, 'boiter', Vulg. Lat. cloppus 'lame'. - Boh. splesklý = pleskatý, supra.
6. Words in tl, (kl, pl,) apparently are liable to lose the initial stop, leaving initial l. I say apparently because I have only doubtful inÂstances of the sequence stl > tl > l. It is inferable from doublets like Lat. stlis/sclis/lis, stlocus/locus; from stlat(t)a 'a broad ship', tlatum, p.p. of fero, = latum, latus 'broad', latus 'side'; and from *Stlatium, Tlatie, Latium. The loss of initial s before a consonant is common Indo-European; but every reason forbids that lis, locus should be Indo-European, while stlis, stlocus are post-IE loans. The alternative probability is that a dropping of s from sl was coeval with the intercalaÂtion of t, and was just another device to avoid pronunciation of sl. I leave the question open and for determination in each individual case.
7. By a different result of lack of coordination, perhaps as an effort to aid articulation, there is produced a hiatus between the t (k, p) and l. This is a breath sound which is a rudimentary vowel, becoming in time a full vowel. This intercalary vowel, not being historical or etymological but a mere phonetic incident in post-Indo-European speech, may take on any vowel timbre according to circumstances. Sometimes it comes in by a metathesis or transposition of an original vowel in the word. The anaptyctic vowel may be represented by a sign like É, but is not to be confused with IE schwa. Moreover, the intercalary vowel someÂtimes takes on the stress accent, which tends to disguise the form and remove it from its cognates in sl. -
Ex.: Gr. = ÏÏÎµÎ³Î³Î¯Ï = ÏÏÎµÎ»Î³Î¯Ï 'a body-scraper'. - Boh. tlapa 'paw', Rum. talpe id., talpetá 'to stamp the feet', Lat. talpa 'mole' (from his large, flat front paws), Gr. ÏÎºÎ¬Î»Î¿Ï and ÏÏάλαξ id., Ital. scalpitare 'to clatter with the hoofs (horses)'; Gr. κολάÏÏειν 'to stamp with the hoof (horses)'. - Bret. (dial. Van) stlafein 'flanquer', Gr. κÏλαÏÎ¿Ï 'a box on the ear'. - Bret. stlak 'claquement', stlok = stolok 'bruit sourd'. - Bret. stlafad 'soufflet', stalaf 'battant de porte', stalf 'linteau'. - Pol. tlusty 'fat', Russ. tolstyy id. - Boh. slup/ stlup 'pillar, column', Illyr. Stlupi, Stulpini (supra). - Gr. Ïκλοι~Î¿Ï = ÏκολιÏÏ 'crooked'. - Fr. claque 'a group of hired applauders', Gr. κÏλαξ 'a flatterer, fawner'.
8. Finally, the l of stl, skl (scl), spl sometimes changes to r. It is not suggested that all cases of str skr (scr) spr have this origin; but there are enough doublets extant to establish the phonetic rule when applicable.-
Ex.: Gr. ÏÏÎ»ÎµÎ³Î³Î¯Ï = ÏÏÏεγγίÏ, supra. - Bret. stlak = strak 'claqueÂment'; stlapad, 'coup de main', strapad 'accès (de mauvais temps, de maladie), strap 'bruit'. - E slip, slippery, Bret. (dial. Leon) stlipou pl. 'tripes', (dial. Van) stripou, id., Fr. tripes, id.
9. Reducing the foregoing conclusions to a formula we have:
Coordinated IE sl > Uncoordinated stl > stÉl, tl, tÉl, skl > skÉl, kl, kÉl, spl > spÉl, pl, pÉl
Add to this occasional variants in str etc., (which, however, cannot be said to form a similar complete paradigm) and we have the basis for analysing a large class of European loan-words whose true places in the history of language cannot otherwise be properly determined.
10. It is apparent that in collating such words from various languages, ancient and modern, we are not dealing with them on the principles on which words descended from a common Indo-European origin are collated. Indeed, if our main thesis be correct, namely, that the comÂbination stl is a phonetic phenomenon of post-Indo-European speech, it is manifest that such groups of words must represent a later, but still chiefly prehistoric, epoch of interloans among the already formed and divergent languages. It also follows that such words cannot be assigned to any Indo-European origin without first eliminating the intercalated stop (and the intercalated vowel, if any) and carrying them back to the Indo-European original through their related forms in the northern or sl group of languages. -
Ex.: Gr. ÏÎºÎ¬Î»Î¿Ï must be analyzed as Ï(κα)λοÏ-, and not as Ïκαλ-οÏ-; Lat. talpa as s(t)lap-, not as talp-, and Gr. ÏÏάλαξ as Ï(Ïα)λακ- = Ï(κα)λαÏ-, not as ÏÏαλ-ακ - all under the common European loan-form slap or slop.
11. The modern science of comparative Indo-European linguistics has been intent on building up the primitive elements of the parent speech. This monumental labor has now about attained its object, and the question even arises whether the system has not become over-comprehensive. All words not obviously loans are, a priori, assigned, or sought to be assigned, to some primitive etymon of the parent speech. But there was a vast stretch of time - how many centuries or millennia we will never know - between that parent speech and our recorded languages. Throughout those long unrecorded ages of prehistory what interrelations existed between the peoples who spoke the prototypes of our recorded languages we do not know. But we must recogÂnize that whenever, even to the remotest times, there was contact beÂtween two or more speech-groups, there was inevitably an interchange, more or less extensive, of vocabulary.9
Meillet has forcibly reminded us10 that the body of words classed as Indo-European really consists of two distinct categories:
(1) words properly Indo-European; and
(2) words which are loans between the separate dialects or languages descended from Indo-European.
These two categories are confused because of the lack of some criterion which can distinguish the original from the loan words.
The present theory furnishes, as to the type of words to which it applies, such a criterion. According to our main premise words bearing the hall-mark of the intercalated stop in sl must belong, not to the primiÂtive Indo-European era, but to some period of that long and ever silent interval following the breaking up of the parent language. If this should necessitate the reconsideration of some etymologies" heretofore deemed adequate, it need not, in any event, disturb the fundamental principles of the science. It offers a point of orientation from which the beginnings may be made of an exploration into an uncharted void in the history of language. That exploration will become more extensive and produce greater results in proportion as other criteria may be found identifying other types of the prehistoric loan-vocabulary.
1 Substantially as presented in a paper read before the annual meeting of the Linguistic Society OF America at New York, December 27th, 1935.
2 In words like Ital. slargare the sl is not strictly initial.
3 See Walde-Pokorny, 2.706-16; 603-51. I have not noticed anything relevant to this topic in the available data of Hittite and Tokharian.
4 As Sanskrit acquired the cacuminal dentals from the Dravidian aborigines. SeeMeillet, Introd.6 11.
5 Who these Mediterranean people were and what language they spoke is unÂknown, and no supposition is advanced. However, we are, I think, justified in calling the stl combination 'Mediterranean'.
6 Oscan slagim (Acc.) 'regionem, finis', slaagid (Abl.), beside Lat. stlocus, stloppus, stlat(t)a, stlis, stlembus; Oscan proper name Slabiis, beside Lat. Stlabius, Labius. Buck, Osc.-Umbr. Gram., s.vv.-Celto-Ligurian inscr. No. 269 slaniai (Prae-Ital. Dial. 2.86), Dat. 'to Slania'?, beside Stlania (Venetia). So, generally in the coastal dialects: Stlaccia (Lucania, Calabria, Campania, Latium, Venetia); Stloga (Latium); Stlabia, Stlaboria (Campania); Stlatta (Volsci); Stlar*** (Daunia); Stla**** (Picenum); and the Illyrian town Stlupi (Ptolemy), with ethnicon Stulpini, on the coast of Liburnia. For the Italic names see Conway, Italic Dialects (1897), and Conway, Whatmough, and Johnson, Prae-Italic Dialects (1933), passim.-Umbrian Tlatie 'Latii' (Buck, op. cit.) does not, I think, repreÂsent a local stl, and thus separate Umbrian from Oscan; but is from an older name *Stlatium of the Latins themselves, i.e. *Slatium 'the flat courtry'. Cf. CamÂpania; stlat(t)a.
7 And, it seems to me, in contact with early Latin. The most archaic stl forms are in Breton.
8 Prov., Sp., Pg. scl beside escl; OFr. escl (Fr. écl); Ital. and Rum. schi. The statement of Brugmann (Grundr.2 1.585) that Lat. stl, 'nach gewissen lauten', became sl > l, does not apply to initial stl. - Although we are not concerned with the general history of -sl- in interior position, it may be observed that the tendency of the dialects of the south Italian coasts to intercalate t into sl was so strong, that when Lat. insula became *isla it was pronounced *istla, and became the name of the island Iscla, now Ischia, off the Bay of Naples. Grandgent, Vulg. Lat. ?284. In Calabria, Sicily, and Sardinia the common noun appears as iska, and in ProÂvence as iscla. Meyer-Liubke, REW2 4475.
9 Although this loan-epoch seems to have been primarily European the eastern languages may also be represented. We may venture to call it the Prehistoric European Loan-period, waiving, for the moment, any participation of the eastern group that may be shown.
10 'Toutefois, il importe de ne jamais l'oublier, le terme de mots indo-européens recouvre deux choses hétérogenes et qui ne restent confondues que par suite de l'absence d'un critère donnant le moyen de les distinguer; et la part des emprunts préhistoriques d'un dialecte indo-européen à un autre ou de plusieurs dialectes indo-européens à des langues d'autres familles est certainement immense'. MeilÂlet, Introd.6 339, cf. 343.
11 I do not discuss details of etymologies since those heretofore advanced are usually treated on an Indo-European basis, and must necessarily clash with those on the interloan theory. I have sought to use for the exposé of the principles announced illustrative forms whose semantic relations are simple and obvious. There are, however, other groups which similarly demonstrate the general prinÂciples, and which I hope to discuss hereafter.'
The slave and Slav word (with its sl-/skl-/stl-)
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/66821
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/67224
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/67253
would also belong here.
Torsten