From: Torsten
Message: 67194
Date: 2011-02-24
>http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/36632
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Marco Moretti"
> <marcomoretti69@...> wrote:
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "petegray" <petegray@...> wrote:
> > > > Also, the meaning of the
> > > > perfect is not so much completion as having an enduring
> > > > effect.
> > >
> > > This is partly true of Greek, but are we right to read it back
> > > into PIE? Even in Greek the "resultative perfect", showing the
> > > result of an action continuing up to the present, is not found
> > > as early as Homer (see Szemerenyi p293). We do find very early
> > > the perfect used for actions which continue in their subject,
> > > which is closer to a stative, or an antipassive. A large
> > > number of Homeric perfects indicate attitude or mood, and they
> > > describe the subject, not the object (e.g.: is ablaze,is
> > > astir,is undone, fits, has as a share, etc). Verbs which are
> > > transitive in later Greek are often intransitive as perfects in
> > > Homer. (See Monro's Homeric Grammar, p31).
> > >
> > > The perfect in Skt is one of three past tenses which at times
> > > are not to be distinguished, and when they are distinguished,
> > > even scholars fight over the difference. In Latin the completion
> > > is a stronger element than the enduring effect. (Remember
> > > Cicero's one-word speech, "vixerunt", meaning "their lives are
> > > over."; and Vergil's fuit Ilium = Troy is no more) In
> > > Germanic it appears, in strong verbs, simply as the simple past.
> > >
> > > The meaning of the perfect in PIE is hard to establish. It
> > > appears to be a highly marked form of the verb, which may have
> > > connections in form to the middle, and connections in meaning to
> > > a stative. But it does seem to describe the subject, not the
> > > object.
> > >
> > > Peter
> >
> >
> > Probably something similar also exists in Etruscan, if /zivas/
> > = "life is over" (i.e. "he/her/they died"). A thorny topic.
> > Probably some light could be shed on it by /...fler zivas.../
> > found in Liber Linteus, less ambiguous than other attestation.
> >
>
> That's odd. I was just speculating on whether there was connection
> between PIE *h2-y-(w-) "life" and *gW-y-(w-) "life". Now it seems
> that *h2/*gW "equation" one way or the other repeats itself in
> Etruscan 'avils' "of age" and 'zivas' "lived".
>