Re: 'dyeus'

--- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@...> wrote:

>
> --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "dgkilday57" <dgkilday57@> wrote:
> >
> > --- In cybalist@yahoogroups.com, "Torsten" <tgpedersen@> wrote:
> > >
> > > [...]
> > >
> > > I wondered if there was once in Latin a situation where the
> > > descendant of PIE *j (zero grade of *i) had two socio-allophones:
> > > a 'sacred' *j, and
> > > a 'profane' *d3,
> > >
> > > and that the names of some gods by hypercorrection got *j- for
> > > PIE *d-j- > *dj-
> > >
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Janus
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diana_(mythology)
> > >
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter_(mythology)#Etymology
> > >
> > > Ernout-Meillet
> > > 'Diana, -ae
> > > (Dīāna, Ov.M.8,353;.
> > > Dīviāna, Varron, si ce n'est pas une reconstruction étymologique '
> > > sans réalité;
> > > Iāna Lūna, forme attribuée aux rūsticī par Varron, R.R.1,37,3)
> > > f.: Diane, déesse nocturne, c.-à-d. Lune:
> > > Dianam autem et Lunam eandem esse putant, Cic., N.D.2,68;
> > > proprement "la lumineuse",
> > > dicta quia noctu quasi diem efficerat, Cic., ibid.3,69;
> > > cf. Iuppiter Diānus.
> > > Diane est la déesse qui préside aux opérations magiques, et son
> > > nom est demeuré dans les langues romanes avec le sens de "fée,
> > > sorcière", etc., M.L. 2624. Sans doute dérivé de dīus par un
> > > intermédiaire *dīuius?; cf. étr. tiv; la scansion d'Ovide a gardé
> > > la quantité ancienne.
> > > ...
> > >
> > > diū, dius (ū?): pendant le jour.
> > > Ancien cas de die:s (v. ce mot) conservé dans la locution noctū
> > > diūque (usité seulement chez les archaïques et les archaïsants),
> > > et dans interdiū, plus tard interdie: d'après hodie:, etc.
> > > Il est probable que noctū a été fait d'après diū "de jour". Mais
> > > le dérivé diurnus, fait sur diu-, doit l'avoir été d'après
> > > nocturnus, cf. gr. νύκτωp "de nuit", νύκτερος, νυκτερινός
> > > "nocturne".
> > > dius: même sens que le précédent, 2 ex. dans la locution noctū
> > > diusque Pl., Mer.882, Tit., Com.13. On a aussi interdius, perdius
> > > (Gell., fait secondairement sur pernox). Dius peut être un génitif
> > > (cf. l'emploi de noctis, νυκτός et les génitifs skr. diváh., gr.
> > > δι(F)ός), ou une formation analogique, comme le génitif skr.
> > > dyόh..
> > > V. die:s.'
> > >
> > > Why else *djou- -> Jou- in Jupiter and diu- otherwise?
> >
> > Why on Earth would Varro's country bumpkins use a "sacred
> > sociolect", with <Ja:na> for Roman Latin <Dia:na>? I think instead
> > we should be looking at a Sabine Latin dialect (not Sabine itself,
> > just as Irish English is not Irish itself). The gemination of
> > <Juppiter> beside expected *Diu:piter (from the IE vocative) has
> > parallels in <futtilis> 'easily emptied, leaky, useless' beside
> > <fu:tilis> and <vitta> 'band, ribbon, fillet' beside expected
> > *vi:ta. These two words are hardly "sacred"; probably they come
> > from the same rustic Sabinizing dialect as <Ja:na>. Obviously
> > <Ja:nus>, name of the god of transitions, is based on IE *yeh2- 'to
> > go from one place to another' and has no etymological connection
> > with <Dia:na>, but confusion had already arisen in late antiquity
> > due to the rustic form <Ja:na>.
> >
> > Varro says "arae Sabinam linguam olent" which I take to mean not
> > that the sacrificial priests spoke Sabine, but that they used a
> > Sabinizing dialect of Latin with technical terms derived from
> > Sabine. I have argued elsewhere that <sulphur>, <mamphur>, and
> > <scintilla> owe their peculiar consonantism to this dialect, these
> > words originally denoting objects used in the fire-starting ritual
> > (and I am now inclined to add <ra:menta> to this group). In my view
> > Sabine Latin was used by the sacrificial priests, by a segment of
> > the Roman underclass, and by certain rustics, but I have found no
> > concrete evidence of differentiation among the three sub-dialects.
>
> Frankly, how does this stated opinion rhyme with your initial
> 'Why on Earth would Varro's country bumpkins use a "sacred
> sociolect", with <Ja:na> for Roman Latin <Dia:na>?'?

My opinion is that the bumpkins used a rustic Sabine Latin dialect, and the sacrificial priests used a closely related dialect. I see no compelling reason to postulate a "sacred sociolect".

> > > The 'profane' allophone *d3 would then have become the norm in
> > > that late Latin from which the Romance languages (minus Romanian?)
> > > developed.
> > >
> > > Under die:s in Ernout-Meillet, I found
> > > 'D'une racine *dei- "briller" (dans skr. ádīdet "il brillait"),
> > > qui est médiocrement attestée, l'indo-européen avait deux
> > > formations comportant des élargissements,
>
> > > l'une en *-eu-, désignant le "ciel lumineux", le "jour"
> > > (considérés comme des forces actives, divines),
>
> > > l'autre en *-en-, qui a subsisté seulement au sens de "jour".
>
> > > Les deux sens ont subsisté en latin.'
> > >
> > > Which made me wonder if it could be reduced to one root,
> > > *diŋ which > *diw- and *din- (*ŋ > w and n happens in Baltic
> > > Finnic).
> > >
> > > But then I discovered I already proposed that
> > > http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/65539
> > >
> > > The Altaic part of that root:
> > > http://tinyurl.com/27souut
> > > http://tinyurl.com/2eo76gh
> > >
> > > It makes one wonder whether the Sky God
> > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sky_Father
> > > in Indo-European is a loan from the outside (as he was in Altaic)?
> >
> > I think E-M are on the right track with root-extensions.
>
> I think they're not. Semantics-less 'extensions' should not be used in the description of a language. I think it's *-eŋ (and a Rozwadowski's change variant *daŋ- in Germanic *dag- etc ?), which showns it's non-IE.

The extensions have semantics, but they are difficult to determine at this time-depth. Nevertheless I think *-g^H- clearly means 'inside, within, etc.'.

> > Whether or not the Sky Father's "Jovian" religion came from outside
> > IE, scattered pieces of evidence point to an earlier solar religion.
> > I suspect that Jovian evangelists insisted, using whatever force
> > they found necessary, that the Sun was not a god but a mere
> > inanimate object. And the old name for the Sun, *h2aws-el- 'the
> > Shining One' vel sim., was replaced by a tabuistic metathetic form
> > *sah2w-el-, originally construed in the neuter. But survivals of
> > the old system persist in Lat. <auster>, discussed earlier, Sab.
> > <ausel> 'the Sun' (according to Festus the source of the gentilicium
> > <Aurelius>), and the relics of south-facing augury, which was
> > superseded by east-facing augury under the Jovian system.
> >
>
> Anything cluttered with laryngeals gets me suspicious of origin elsewhere. If the language of *saŋ-l- "hole (in the sky"
> http://tech.dir.groups.yahoo.com/group/cybalist/message/66191
> includes Schrijver's 'language of bird names' with its *a- (*aŋ- ?) prefix, the *saŋ-l- above would have a side form *a(ŋ)-saŋ-l-.

Further comments will follow.

DGK